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Using my mums LPA to pay for her residential nursing care in Wales

Dansam

Registered User
May 10, 2022
10
0
Hi
new to this so bare with me.
I have LPA’s in place for financial and health and well being for my 87 year old mum who has quite advanced Alzheimer’. Social services has deemed that her current care package at her own home is not adequate to meet her need and there requires to be in a dementia nursing care home. My sister and I have found a nice place near to both of us for mum to go to, they have a room available for her (its currently being renovated so that’ll be nice for her). The council say that they will contribute £850 towards the cost of the home and that the difference will need to be met by a 3rd party As apparently, mum isn’t allowed to top up the difference. They say that it’s the law, I have spoken with the Office for Public Guidance and they’ve said it’s mums money and it’s for mums treatment so there is no reason why she shouldn’t be allowed to use her money to top up the care home fees. The social services say that as I as an LPA holder, could be prosecuted for “ misappropriating mums funds”. The O.P.G. say that I would only be prosecuted if for example I used mums funds to pay for a holiday or car for myself, not topping up the cost of a nice care home for her. The social say that it could be viewed that mum could have adequate or equivalent care for the 850. Well I’m afraid adequate isnt good enough for mum and as the OPG said, if mum wants to pay a little more for a nicer stay, then that’s entirely her choice and in their view would be in her best interests.

I would value your opinions on this.

my thoughts are that it may be policy not to allow the people going into care to top up their fees but surely it can’t be a legal requirement to stop them doing so.

I think that they do this so that when mums money eventually runs out (she’s self funding). They won’t be stuck with paying the £1200 per week fee. If it does run out in two or three years time and they have to move mum into a cheaper home, the way mums deteriorating, if she’s still with us, she won’t know if it’s Christmas or Easter. At least for the years that she was slightly cognitive, she is in a nice place.

thanks for reading

BTW. My dad had Alzheimer’s 37 years ago, we lost him in 1990 so we know what’s ahead of us, tho there’s more research into this dreadful condition now and patients arejust dosed up and sat in a chair drooling as they were back then thankfully
 

nitram

Registered User
Apr 6, 2011
25,465
0
North Manchester
Assuming Wales is the same as England the LA are correct, first party top ups are only allowed in three situations, s117 funding, 12 week disregard period, and deferred payment if agreed by LA.
 
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Dansam

Registered User
May 10, 2022
10
0
Hi Nitram

Thanks for your prompt reply, the LA has agreed to deferred payment till mum’s home is sold (assuming that chc is not granted).

If I base it on remaining self funding, does that mean that after mums home is sold and she becomes responsible for the whole amount, then it’ll be ok for me, as her LPA holder to pay those fees using mum funds.
 

Shedrech

Volunteer Moderator
Dec 15, 2012
12,457
0
Yorkshire
hello @Dansam
a warm welcome to DTP
I agree with nitram, and find it worrying that the OPG seem to have given inaccurate information

I am a little confused, though, as you say your mum will be self-funding ... if so the LA will pay nothing towards her care fees ... though, as you say, if in the future her funds reach the thresholds, the LA will begin to contribute and will not pay more than their rate, which may require a move ... check with the care home as some will agree to accept the LA rate only if a resident has been with them for a specified number of years


cross-posted with reply above (have therefore edited comment as doesn't apply)

Yes, when the funds from the sale of the property are available, the care home fees will be paid fully from her funds ... you can chose the care home (though check about what will happen when funds become low)

I'm surprised the LA are stipulating an amount

may be worth having a chat with an advisor on the Support line
 
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nitram

Registered User
Apr 6, 2011
25,465
0
North Manchester
The £850/wk is the amount the LA are prepared to pay for care, any top up required by a home cannot normally be paid by the resident, it has to be paid by a third party.

One exception where first party top up is allowed is when a property is being sold.
The standard time allowed for the sale is 12 weeks after which top up have to be third party, the LA has discretion to extend the 12 weeks.

When choosing a care home for self funding see if they will agree to accept the LA rate after n years of self funding if cash runs out.
 

My Mum's Daughter

Registered User
Feb 8, 2020
197
0
In Wales, once someone's capital drops below £50,000, LA funding kicks in. Unlike England, there is no upper and lower threshold.
 

Dansam

Registered User
May 10, 2022
10
0
Thanks for your replies, it’s much appreciated .

Just to confirm, we can use mums funds for the first 12 weeks or longer if th LA has agreed deferred payment, while mums house is sold. Once the home is sold, we can use her funds to pay the full amount of the care until such time as the funds last.

Trying to get info off the LA or NHS is like walking through treacle

All information gratefully accepted
 

nitram

Registered User
Apr 6, 2011
25,465
0
North Manchester
The 12 weeks is a period of time allowing the house to be sold during which the value of the house is disregarded for financial assessment meaning that the LA can contribute to care home costs.

The rational behind not allowing first party top ups is to leave the person with an estate of the lower limit to pay for funeral costs and some inheritance to pass on.

The 12 weeks of top ups during disregard simply reduce the capital the person has when they start self funding after the house is sold, they do not use up any of the lower limit and are therefore allowed.
 

Dansam

Registered User
May 10, 2022
10
0
Mums funeral is already sorted via pre-paid funeral package. As far as inheritance goes, if one of mums children decide to be the third party (and no one has that kind of long term finances), the inheritance that they may receive will in no way cover what would’ve been paid out as a top-up.

So once again, after the house is sold, as mum will probably be self-funding, can her home proceeds be used to fund her stay in a care home till the fund gets down to £50k, which will probably take around three years. If after this time the care home still require the full amount as opposed to what the LA will pay, then mum will have to be moved, assuming that by this time a chc assessment has not found in mums favour.
 

Jessbow

Registered User
Mar 1, 2013
4,322
0
Midlands
I dont understand this 'top up' querey.~

If your Mum is self funding, how/why does a top up come into play ?

Top ups areusually paid when someone is NOT self funding, to raise council cash award to the home, where the rate is inssuficient for the person to stay there

if cuncil/SS/ whoever is paying £850 PM towards the cost of her care, she isnt self funding!
 

nitram

Registered User
Apr 6, 2011
25,465
0
North Manchester
If your Mum is self funding, how/why does a top up come into play ?
Mum is not self funding, the LA are disregarding the value of the house for 12 weeks allowing it to be sold and in this case first party top ups are allowed.
When the house is sold she will become self funding.
 

nitram

Registered User
Apr 6, 2011
25,465
0
North Manchester
So once again, after the house is sold, as mum will probably be self-funding, can her home proceeds be used to fund her stay in a care home till the fund gets down to £50k, which will probably take around three years. If after this time the care home still require the full amount as opposed to what the LA will pay, then mum will have to be moved, assuming that by this time a chc assessment has not found in mums favour.
Basic answer is yes, although a best interests argument can be made for her not to be moved.
You may be able to negotiate that after n years of self funding they will accept council rate.

<In England there is a proposed lifetime cap on care costs https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...t-social-care-charging-reform-further-details don't know about Wales>
 

Dansam

Registered User
May 10, 2022
10
0
I dont understand this 'top up' querey.~

If your Mum is self funding, how/why does a top up come into play ?

Top ups areusually paid when someone is NOT self funding, to raise council cash award to the home, where the rate is inssuficient for the person to stay there

if cuncil/SS/ whoever is paying £850 PM towards the cost of her care, she isnt self funding!
The LA are funding on a deferred payment basis, once the house sold then mum will be entirely self funding.
 

Dansam

Registered User
May 10, 2022
10
0
Just had a conversation with social services, who have said they do not allow donor top up even for the first 12 weeks.
Any help explaining this gratefully received
 

Dansam

Registered User
May 10, 2022
10
0
Basic answer is yes, although a best interests argument can be made for her not to be moved.
You may be able to negotiate that after n years of self funding they will accept council rate.

Does this apply to wales
 

canary

Registered User
Feb 25, 2014
18,843
0
South coast
Just had a conversation with social services, who have said they do not allow donor top up even for the first 12 weeks.
Any help explaining this gratefully received
Was it the SW, or the finance department who said this? SWs are often not totally accurate on financing matters, but the finance department should be.
 

nitram

Registered User
Apr 6, 2011
25,465
0
North Manchester
Just had a conversation with social services, who have said they do not allow donor top up even for the first 12 weeks.
Any help explaining this gratefully received
As I have said Wales may be different.
I can't find any online info Wales.
Ask your local AgeUK or CAB they should know the rules in Wales.
 

My Mum's Daughter

Registered User
Feb 8, 2020
197
0
The council say that they will contribute £850 towards the cost of the home
I'm just wondering if they're contributing £850 a week or £850 a week minus her income. Income is usually used for care home fees, even if the person is fully funded so this might be worth investigating.
Also, as your Mum will be self-funded in the future, you could try contacting Jane Hutt who is the minister for social justice.