ta all for support but have another problem

Discussion in 'ARCHIVE FORUM: Support discussions' started by nemesisis, Oct 21, 2007.

  1. nemesisis

    nemesisis Registered User

    May 25, 2006
    100
    As some of you said ( ta in a panic over that)
    social services have now agreed that mum has a serious risk of another fall and social services have agreed that they can't send mum home but the bad news is as she will be self funding ie she ownes her own home its up to me to sort a care home out as soon as possible. Over the weekend I have phoned up 6 homes on the list they gave me and they have all told me that they cannot take another Alzheimers person apparently a lot of care homes can only take a certain number of dementia people even tho they can take x amount of people I know the hospital is going to ring tommorow to see how I have got on. Is there anyone I can contact to help me find a care home within 20 miles
     
  2. Cate

    Cate Registered User

    Jul 2, 2006
    1,370
    Newport, Gwent
    Hi Nemisis

    Social Services should be able to provide you with a full list of NH in your area, you should also check out the inspection reports also.

    A word of caution. Although mum will be self funding, if there is any chance that over the coming years her cash will run out, you must ensure that you NH you select is one that Social Services will then pay for in the event of that happening.

    Also if mums funding will come from the sale of a property, should mum need funding in the meantime, you should approach Social Services for this, they will of course expect repayment once the property is sold.

    Best wishes.
    Cate
     
  3. christine_batch

    christine_batch Registered User

    Jul 31, 2007
    3,388
    Buckinghamshire
    Dear Nemesisis,
    Have you tried on the Internet for Care Homes in your area? I know it will be hard but you must really stick to your guns and tell them you have not come across a suitable one for your Mother. I did this with my husband and fortunatly, Peter did go to the one I thought was best and he settled in first day. If you would like me to help, please send a private message. Please do not let them push you into something you are not happy with. Best wishes. Christine
     
  4. nemesisis

    nemesisis Registered User

    May 25, 2006
    100
    cate

    Am a bit woried about this as mum only ownes a 2 bed semi in (not the best area) so only worth 80,000 and as mum is only 75 and in mums family they all live till there 90's what happens if I find a lovely private care home and the money runs out in a few years?
     
  5. Cate

    Cate Registered User

    Jul 2, 2006
    1,370
    Newport, Gwent
    Hi

    This is why I said be cautious, dont sign anything until you get the OK from Social Services. My mum was in the same boat as yours.

    Mums funding had to go to Panel prior to her going to the NH to ensure the funding whilst her home was for sale. SS paid the bills until her home was sold, then we paid them back, now mum is self funding until her money runs out and at £467 per week, it wont last that many years, however once its all gone, Social Services will then pay for her again. So you must ensure that you have this agreement with them.

    Good luck.

    Love
    Cate xx
     
  6. nemesisis

    nemesisis Registered User

    May 25, 2006
    100
    cate

    social services have explained to me that mum will have to pay out of the sale of her house but what I am worried about is when the money runs out and it wont last long will they move her to a cheaper home to save them money!! I do not want her to have to move again in a few years am I better finding her a cheaper home (although not as nice) to save further trauma?
     
  7. jenniferpa

    jenniferpa Volunteer Moderator

    Jun 27, 2006
    39,439
    I think Cate's point is that if you get an agreement with social services before you place your mother, then there will be no need to move her when her money runs out.
     
  8. nemesisis

    nemesisis Registered User

    May 25, 2006
    100
    jenn

    trouble is social services dont want anything to do with mum as they said "your mum is self funding as she ownes her own home here's is a list and the hospital want her out as soon as poss. when her funds or down to 20,000 give us a ring that is all they told me so take that as on me own then!!!!!!!!!!!
     
  9. Margaret W

    Margaret W Registered User

    Apr 28, 2007
    3,725
    North Derbyshire
    Dear Nemesisis,

    Yes, this is a problem. My mum's house has just sold for £130,000 so we are in a bit better position than you, but it is still a worry. I agree with everyone on this site, make sure social services understand your position and that the home you choose would be one they would fund if your mum was not self-funding. It might seem strange and unfair, but if you are self-funding, homes charge you more than they do the social services, so don't panic unduly if the home you find is initially more than the SS limit. Discuss with the manager/owner first. I have since learnt that they will negotiate to a point. If they are suggesting £80 a week above the social services level, make a few noises that that is more than you can afford. Suggest £40 a week extra, and negotiate at £50 or £60. And I bet that is affordable out of your mum's house sale.

    Your mum is only 75? Mine is 80. We consulted Help the Aged, who have a "deal" with a firm of Financial Advisers, underwritten by HSBC bank, who have been very helpful to us. We are seeing the Adviser again tomorrow, and the figures I quote below are all related to my mum, not to yours, so not to be relied upon for you. For about £50,000 depending on doctor's reports, we can buy a plan that pays £1200 a month (that's the difference between the care home fees and her pension - don't forget to claim Attendance Allowance pronto and backdate the time you felt mum needed help to as early as possible cos there is a six-month delay before it kicks in), which starts in 3 years. You can have any combination of plans, starting in 1 year, 2 years, 5 years, whatever. We (MUm) has to pay for her care in the meantime. From what you say, you would have £30,000 left (plus her pension and Attendance Allowance, £64.50 a week at the highest rate) to pay for the first 3 years, which may not be quite enough. So consult Help the Aged (or others who have expertise in the aged, not just any Financial Advisor, I think they need to have an F8 qualifcation), and see what they can do for you. It is at least worth it just to go through the options.

    I assume your mum has no other savings?

    An alternative is to NOT sell your mum's house, but rent it out, say £400 a month depending on the area, and if her capital without the house is less that £21,500 (in my area, it does vary), Social Services will fund the home up to a certain level, and you will be expected to top it up if the fees are more that than level, say £70 a week. You could pay that out of the house rental income (think about tax on it though, you might not have £400 a month left over, especially with insurance and other costs), and you might not have a tenant for all 12 months of the year. BUT if the house rises in value, you get that benefit, and can always sell it when you feel the time is right. I wonder where you live, that a 2-bed house is only valued at £80,000 - I suspect in an area where house prices are likely to rise, but I am no expert, so ignore my opinions.

    If you don't sell your mum's house, the social services will set up a "debt" against it, such that when it is eventually sold you will have to repay the accumulated debt, but there is no interest charged on the debt, so that is a plus point. The negative point is that you have the stress of managing a rented house, unless you pay an agent to do it for you (with more cost).

    I suspect your mum is at the tight end of being able to manage what you want for her, for the rest of her life. I appreciate what you say about not wanting to move her elsewhere, and I think that is important. My mum doesn't particularly like the home she is in (been there 3 months) but she IS getting used to it, and I wouldn't want to move her without a significant reason for so doing. It isn't perfect, but she is as happy there as she would be anywhere else.

    Now, what to look for in a care home for your mum, if you are on a tight budget.

    Clean, not too smelly (they all smell a bit, all those incontinent old people can't have no smell at all), residents of similar age/condition to herself that she might make friends with (mum has made friends with the most unlikely person imaginable!), bedroom acceptable (don't think that a big room is better than a small room, your mum will adapt more than you think, but I wouldn't go for a shared room cos mum could be upset if the other person is ill, or goes into hospital for a spell - as they do - or dies!). One home we viewed (well, the one we chose) had two very nice little rooms downstairs but they were so cold we couldn't accept them. Think about where your mum's room is in relation to other areas of the home - will she get lost? Most homes fetch residents from their bedrooms to the lounge/dining room in a morning and see them back to bed at night, so the location might not be a problem for your mum.

    Do you want en-suite facilities? A toilet and washbasin is useful. Baths and Showers are better if supervised by the staff anyway.

    Some homes were quite posh, chandeliers (well, mum's has them, most of the bulbs are out!), antique furniture, forget it. Go for basic and clean. Mum's home has filthy windows (on a main road), but most of the residents don't notice.

    But to me the most important criterion was the staff. Those in mum's home have mostly been there 3/4/5 years, they all get on well, have a laugh together, seem to enjoy the job, get on well with the manager (who mucks in as well), the cleaner sits with the residents, so does the cook, and the girl from the office. Course you don't know all that till mum has been there for a while, but our first visit saw the maintenance man putting up new Fire notices and one of the carers was jibing about the positioning of these, and the staff were all laughing. It just gave me a good impression about the workers.

    Well, hope all this helps.

    I am no expert, but am good with figures, and have just been through this with my mum.

    Hope you manage.

    Best wishes

    Margaret
     
  10. Margaret W

    Margaret W Registered User

    Apr 28, 2007
    3,725
    North Derbyshire
    Dear Nemesisis

    I forgot to add, you may not need to look for a specialist Alzheimers home, some of them are terribly depressing. Mum's consultant advised she would be okay in a general home with proper night supervision (mum wanders at night) and front door security. In fact the home we have chosen only has front door security at night (after 5 p.m.), but good night supervision, and they didn't hesitate to accept mum. She has made no effort to leave the home (I didn't think she would), you might have to think about what is right for your mum and whether in fact she needs specialist AD care. Most care homes have their share of residents with AD and are perfectly capable of dealing with their memory problems and strange utterings.

    Think about it, it might give you a bit more choice.

    Your Social Worker should be advising you, though they aren't allowed to make recommendations, but you pick up on things like "Yes, we have placed a number of people there recently", or "I don't know much about that home at all".

    And you can go out of your local health authority area and still get their financial support, so sometimes, going "over the border" can give you more choice too.

    Best of luck

    Margaret
     
  11. Margaret W

    Margaret W Registered User

    Apr 28, 2007
    3,725
    North Derbyshire
    It's me again.

    You are right, once mum's money runs out, you will be reliant on whatever social services will pay, and if the care home charges more than that, it will be up to you to pay the difference or move her to a cheaper home. However, many care homes will "do a deal" to charge you less that the full self-funding amount, so discuss with them and tell them you are worried.

    Being morbid, your mum might not live to the ripe old age of the rest of her family, so isn't it best that she enjoys the next few years in a place she likes, and worry about what happens later - if it ever happens? I am not suggesting you don't consider the long term, that would be foolish, but its just another persepective.

    Consult an IFA and see what they come up with.

    Best wishes

    Margaret
     
  12. jenniferpa

    jenniferpa Volunteer Moderator

    Jun 27, 2006
    39,439
    Argh - I just typed a really long reply and inadvertently closed the *())(**() window.

    Ok. CRAG and LAC(2001)10 are your bibles when it comes to dealing with LA and residential charging.

    If your mother has no other savings but her house, she is entiled to a 12 week property disregard. This is not an option for the LA - they HAVE to provide it, and further more this is not repayable. LAC (2001) 10 states

    Councils should
    "c) Enter into 12 week contracts with care homes to cover the period of the 3-months property disregard, and consider contractual terms which enable the contracts to be terminated earlier if residents revert to self-funding status before the 12 weeks ends. After the end of the 12 weeks, councils will need to consider whether the value of residents' assets (including property) mean they no longer need council support. (Of course, councils will continue to support and maintain contracts for those residents who, although they pay the full costs of their care, lack the capacity to make their own arrangements.) "

    If you mother falls into the eligible category I would make it quite clear to the LA that you are going to apply for this disregard (not deferral) and that might make them get their tails in gear. Note that the point where they have to start making partial payments is 21,500 not 20,000.

    Also note that when she becomes self-funding (at 12 weeks or before if the house sells) AA will be reinstated.

    I got a similar response from the LA. We didn't get to that point, but I did make sure that the NH I selected accepted LA clients.

    I know there was more but I can't remember what I typed now :mad: - if I think of it I'll post again.
     
  13. jenniferpa

    jenniferpa Volunteer Moderator

    Jun 27, 2006
    39,439
    Aha - not lost but just mislaid (some of this will duplicate what i said in my previous post)

    Well I must confess, that was their attitude me me as well. However, I think you've said elsewhere that your mother does not have any other saving aprt fromt he house. If that's the case they are supposed to offer you deferred payments for 12 weeks. I say supposed to, becasue I read on a government website that this was not always being offered, even though it should be. However, to my mind that gives you a foot in the door: if you demand this then obviously social services will have to get involved with you. As it turned out we never got to the point of spending down mummy's savings but I did ensure that the NH where I placed her did accept social services funded patients.

    The relevant parts of CRAG are

    Disregarded for 12 weeks
    6.028A In the case of a resident who becomes a permanent resident on or after 9 April 2001 the value of any dwelling which he would otherwise normally occupy as his only or main residence subject to meeting the qualifying conditions that can be found in paragraph 12 of the Annex to LAC(2001)10. (see also 7.003A in CRAG)

    Disregard for the first 12 weeks of a permanent stay

    7.003A In the case of a resident who becomes a permanent resident on or after 9 April 2001 the value of any dwelling which he would otherwise normally occupy as his only or main residence should be disregarded for the first 12 weeks of a permanent stay, subject to meeting the qualifying conditions which can be found in paragraph 12 of the Annex to LAC(2001)10. This may not be their first permanent admission to permanent residential care. Schedule 4 para 2A

    CRAG is here http://www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publication...tions/PublicationsPolicyAndGuidance/DH_073650
    LAC(2001)10 is here http://www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publication...thorityCirculars/AllLocalAuthority/DH_4080643

    Provided she doen't have any other assets or sufficient income to pay the cost of care this disregard is an absolute right i.e. the council can't refuse to offer it.

    One part of LAC(2001)10 says
    "Counciles should.. Enter into 12 week contracts with care homes to cover the period of the 3-months property disregard, and consider contractual terms which enable the contracts to be terminated earlier if residents revert to self-funding status before the 12 weeks ends. After the end of the 12 weeks, councils will need to consider whether the value of residents' assets (including property) mean they no longer need council support. (Of course, councils will continue to support and maintain contracts for those residents who, although they pay the full costs of their care, lack the capacity to make their own arrangements.) "

    Note that AA will become payable after this 12 week period (or less time if the house sells before that). Also note that this is NOT deferral - that is, the council can't come back and ask for the return of this money. Now if you have some savings but they aren't liquid and a house to sell or if you have no savings but the house fails to sell withing 12 weeks some councils may offer a deferred payment scheme whereby they will pay the care bills and then recoup those when the house is sold, but they don't HAVE to do that. They do have provide the 12 week property disregard if you are eligible.

    Still, assuming you're eleigible for the disregard, I would point this out and that you will be applying for it. That might make them get their act together.
     
  14. nemesisis

    nemesisis Registered User

    May 25, 2006
    100
    thanks all for information have printed a lot of it so I can try to understand it all
    (so much to take onboard and think about)
     
  15. Margaret W

    Margaret W Registered User

    Apr 28, 2007
    3,725
    North Derbyshire
    Hi Nemesis,

    I forgot the 12-weeks property disregard, not to be ignored cos it gives you a breathing space if nothing else.

    Just a thought, if your mum is in an area where a 2-bed house sells for only £80,000 she might also be in an area where the Local Authority maximum pays for a decent care home.

    Your social worker should be able to advise on the funding available, and if it isn't enough for the home you want, ask Help the Aged or similar IFAs qualified in the funding of long-term care. They don't charge for advice, only if you run with one of their plans, and what we have gone with the costs were minimal.

    I'd be glad to hear what turns up. It is a big issue of mine at the moment, the funding of long-term care for the elderly, I am hoping to build case to present to Alastiar Darling on the inadequacies of care home funding. Pity Gordon Brown isn't still the Chancellor - when he had kids he improved funding for kids. Now he probably has elderly parents, we might have seen some improvement for elderly parents!

    I learn today that now my mum has sold her house, she loses her £10 a week Pensions Saving Credit that was supposed to reward her for being frugal.

    Cheek!

    Good luck, I hope you find somewhere affordable.

    Love

    Margaret
     

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