Section 117, help please

[Skylark/2]

Hi everyone,
I have posted on here many times and been grateful for all the advice and support that Ihave received.

Latest query is as follows.
My husband is about to be discharged in the next few weeks under section 117. In the opinion of the hospital team he needs an EMI dementia nursing home as he has complex needs. At the meeting, I got the impression that he would be fully funded 50/50 by the NHS and SS.
Our local council provide a care home list and I have been phoning them from this list this a.m, plus I’ve spoken to his allocated S.S. She told me that I would have to pay top up fees of varying amounts depending on which home my husband went to. Is she correct?
I understood that if I chose a home that is not on the council list and is more expensive I would have top up fees to pay but now I am totally confused.
Is my husband fully funded 50/50 by the NHS and SS or are we expected to pay top up regardless.
Help please!!!!

 

[nitram]

She told me that I would have to pay top up fees of varying amounts depending on which home my husband went to. Is she correct?

Yes.
Untill recently the NHS paid the total care costs, this has changed, now NHS pay medical and LA 'hotel' costs.
The LA has to find at least one placement and if one cannot be found they ask for a top up, all top ups are voluntary.
Note that s117 is one of three cases when first party top ups are allowed.

 

[SAP]

Yes as @nitram has said,if the home costs more than the 117 aftercare allowance ( that CCG dictate) then your husband can be asked to top up out of his funds i.e pensions, savings etc. . Remember that this is from his money not yours. This is in place in order to give the person ( or representative of the person) the right to have some choice over where they can be placed. If a care home provides the care required and falls in line with the LAs requirements but the fees are more than the LA would pay , that is when a top up can be made. This can only be done if the LA is satisfies that the person in question ( or their family ) have the funds avaliable. Therefore it is obviously only payable where the accommodation is the persons preferred choice having seen the alternative the LA can provide. The following link explains this fairly clearly. ( just incase the SW doesn’t really know what they are talking about!)

Understanding s.117 Aftercare Accommodation – EM LawShare

emlawshare.co.uk

 

[GlennBurch]

Not understanding the financial aspects only adds to the anxiety. It is important to get accurate information about what costs you will incur and what financing options are available. Discuss this carefully with your local council and care representatives so that you can make an informed decision. Remember that support and help are available and you are not alone in this.

 

[Skylark/2]

I was thinking of applying for a CHC assessment for my husband before he leaves hospital under section 117 to move to a EMI dementia nursing home.
When I told his social worker, she told me that if I applied, his section 117 would be stopped.
Tired, anxious and confused!

Is she correct?

 

[nitram]

Is she correct?

According to MIND, no.

You won't need to be assessed for Continuing Healthcare if all your needs are being met under Section 117 aftercare. But if you have additional needs which are not being met under section 117, you may also be eligible for Continuing Healthcare. For example, needs that aren’t related to your mental health

Example
...
...

https://www.mind.org.uk/information-support/legal-rights/health-and-social-care-rights/continuing-healthcare-chc/#CanIBeEligibleForCHCAndSection117AftercareAtTheSameTime

 

[DeeCee7]

According to MIND, no.

You won't need to be assessed for Continuing Healthcare if all your needs are being met under Section 117 aftercare. But if you have additional needs which are not being met under section 117, you may also be eligible for Continuing Healthcare. For example, needs that aren’t related to your mental health

Example
...
...

https://www.mind.org.uk/information-support/legal-rights/health-and-social-care-rights/continuing-healthcare-chc/#CanIBeEligibleForCHCAndSection117AftercareAtTheSameTime

I just wanted to say thank you, @nitram . You can always be relied upon to come up with your excellent advice on these tricky matters. So clear and incisive. It’s very kind of you. There are some wonderful people on this forum. I think it’s very special and unique.

 

[Skylark/2]

@nitram , thank you for replying so quickly and can I echo @DeeCee7 thoughts too!
In the coming days, Ithink Imay have more questions!

 

[Skylark/2]

Good morning everyone.
Help and advise needed once again.
My husband has been under section 3 and in hospital foralmost3 months. He takes antipsychotic medication and is about to be discharged into an EMI dementia nursing home under section 117. He has been assessed by both a social worker and a nurse from the care home. He was sectioned as he had lost capacity, was agitated and increasingly aggressive, but is now much calmer, dare I use the words placid and compliant, thinks the hospital is his ‘ home’ now.
I am unsure of how to proceed with his actual move though. Do I drive hIm there, do I go with him if other transport has been arranged or do I meet him on his arrival. Obviously I want the day to go smoothly for him. How have any of you good people managed this transfer?
thank you.

 

[thistlejak]

With us it was MIL that was in your husbands place - she was transferred to her Nursing Home by the OT from the hospital. We had been to the home the day before and taken extra clothing etc to her new room. We had been in the habit of seeing her once/twice a week for about 30 mins - all she could manage - so didn't visit her for a couple of days.

 

[SAP]

Well again this is down to personal preference so all I can do is share what I did. Bit of background first though because this is where the difference lies. I’m talking about my mum here and we were never very close mainly due to living 300 miles apart. I moved her near to me and saw her more in 12 months than I did in 30 years. When she was sectioned I was completely devastated and suffering with burnout and PTSD so I could hardly function let alone visit a very confused and aggressive mother. I took a massive step back and told the hospital and social worker they would have to arrange everything and actually stopped taking calls. So like I say dramatically different.
All of that said, the hospital actually arranged the transport as that was their policy and I would not have been able to travel with them due to insurance reason. I didn’t visit for a few weeks as I wanted mum to settle and I was too traumatised to face face this new version of her. I did call the home immediately to introduce myself and to let them know that if mum needed anything they only had to ask.
The first few visits were tough, this is not a pretty home and several of the residents are in the last stages, others are very confused. However I soon realised that mum is getting very good care and the staff understand all of her needs and ways. They have vast experience of dementia in all of its many forms.
So I’m guessing this point is to ask what the transport arrangements are and take it from there. Sorry for the long response ,I’m just about to leave to visit her and I still find it tough.

 

[sdmhred]

Morning @Skylark/2
Im glad things have improved for your husband - its been a long road.
It sounds like your husband is being directly transferred from hospital to care home. If that’s so, then the hospital are responsible for transport and can use the patient transport service. You shouldn’t have to be involved at all. If they ask you, direct it back.
Mum was moved from hospital to a care home 2 hours away no problem that way.

I couldn’t be there when she arrived but was there the next day. I’ve always been there loads for mum but it has helped her on moves. Others stay away for a few days as that works better for them.

 

[Kevinl]

Section 117 relates to funding care, detaining someone is usually section 2 or 3 or a DoLSO.
Transfer is usually accompanied by someone from the hospital, care home or social services as they are in care as such. Good luck with the move, hope it all goes well for you. K

 

[Skylark/2]

thank you, everyone, for your replies. Your advice and support is invaluable!
I’ll contact all the relevant people tomorrow ( hospital, SS, care home ) and ask who is responsible for transferring my husband. Will also visit home the day before his arrival to personalise his room. Am making photo albums this a.m, so many bitter/sweet memories.

 

[DeeCee7]

Do hope everything runs smoothly @Skylark/2 . It will help you to be involved with personalising his room, I liked doing that for our PWD and made it very homely. The photo albums must be bitter/sweet but I hope you enjoyed doing them. I am so pleased that all seems so much calmer for you both now, it’s been a very long journey.

 

[thistlejak]

@Skylark/2 - Can I suggest that you put labels on the photos - MIL's care home found it useful to know who was in the photos - I used one of the pocket type albums and put the names/location/occasion as appropriate in the left hand pocket and the photo in the right hand side as you opened the album.

 

[SAP]

Photo album is so important, gave mum lists of joy during visits and defined label photos that you put up in the room so the staff can talk about family members too.

 

[canary]

Photo albums are great, but do make sure that the photos are copies and not originals in case the album goes walkabout
X

 

[Skylark/2]

Help please, I am totally confused.
Husband due to be discharged under 117 to a care home next Tuesday. We will have to pay top up fees. I have been sent by the council, a third party agreement form to sign but also a fact sheet regarding financial matters top up payments. At the bottom of the page it says ‘ can I top up my own fees ‘ and then says ‘ no , except in the following circumstances……if you receive services under section 117 of the mental health act 1983.
My husband has a healthy pension pot and I assumed that the top up fees would come from that, I have POA, but when I query if this is possible I am getting nowhere. I have asked the help line here, they are unsure, I have asked the manager at the care home, she can’t help. I have sent texts, phone calls to his social worker, she has not replied, I have asked at the hospital where he is at the moment, they are unsure. I don’t want to sign a form that might commit me to paying increasing costs over possibly a number of years.
I have even tried to phone the office of public guardian, to ask advice as I have POA, no answer.
If anyone can help I’d be most grateful.

 

[SAP]

I’m not sure why you have this form. Your husband, being on 117 aftercare will be able to top up his care fees from his own money. You do not have to pay any top ups for him. I think this would be a first party top up but I’m not 100% sure. Anyway a third party top up would be yourself and in this instance you will not have to contribute.
( 117 after care is one of two occasions where the person needing care can provide a top up from their own money if one is needed. In any other circumstance if a person had enough money to top up their care fees then they would not qualify for any external funding . 117 aftercare is different because it automatically is given if a person has been on section 3 and this is regardless of their own financial situation)