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Relative in hospital since June - Now being threaten with a court order to evict from NHS bed

Discussion in 'Legal and financial issues' started by TB2014, Nov 18, 2017.

  1. TB2014

    TB2014 New member

    Nov 15, 2017
    My Grandfather has been in a NHS hospital since June. During his admission he has been diagnosed with dementia and a safeguarding has been in place due to him not coping at home. He has a DOLS in place and as lost his mental capacity.
    An assessment has declared he requires a EMI nursing home bed. I am trying to move him to the town where I live due to family circumstances. I am his NOK.
    Initially he was assess to have fully funded continuing health care (CHC). I found his a suitable bed in a nursing home, his discharge papers were done and transport booked. Then that morning I received a phone call to say the funding had been pulled and the home wasn't then willing to accept him.
    Another assessment granted him Funding nursing care (FNC) only and he would now be self funding. He has savings above the £23,000 threshold. He doesn't have a power of attorney.
    I have since looked into applying to the court of protection to become his deputy. Due to the expense I was trying to complete this myself but eventually have borrowed money to go via a solicitor. This process I'm told can take up to six months (even fast tract).
    After contacting every home within a 10 miles radius I keep hitting brick walls! There's no beds and then no where would take him anyway because they aren't prepared to accept a deferred payment. Instead they want me to pay £350 per week... which I simply can't afford!
    I have been communicating closely with his social worker throughout. But now I have had the Sister of the ward on the phone basically telling me I have to look at other homes away from me or I will receive a court letter to evict him from the NHS bed...
    Has anyone been in this type of situation? Can anyone offer advice?
  2. Kevinl

    Kevinl Registered User

    Aug 24, 2013
    Hi TB, welcome to TP
    I take it your Grandfather doesn't own a property as if he does the Local Authority should offer him a Deferred Payment Agreement (DPA) where they pick up the first 12 weeks of the care costs then secure a charge on the property, continue paying the fees and recover the money when the property is sold. That is unless someone else is living in it, it's complicated but that's it in short.
    Next time the sister rings you ask here to send the repossession order to Social Services not you, legally they're the ones liable for him not you.
    I'm sure you'll get many comments on this but mine is that your social worker needs to step up and do something not leave it all to you.
  3. care2share

    care2share Registered User

    Jun 14, 2015
    Hi TB,
    Sorry to hear of your difficult situation and welcome to TP.
    Whist making your main application to become deputy for finance make an interim application to the Court of Protection using form COP 9 to gain access to funds to cover care fees until deputyship is granted. There is no charge made by COP for the interim application (apart from solicitors fees). Ask for an amount that would cover, say £20,000 or whatever the nursing home fees are likely to be. The court will issue an order for this amount to be put in to the hands of your solicitor and the solicitor will arrange the fees to be paid from it. Advise the hospital that this action has been taken. You will have done all you can possibly do at this point. Don't go paying any large amounts of money requested by care homes but do settle any small charges if you possibly can such as utilities that are owing as you will be able to reclaim these once your deputyship has been granted and it will avoid the penalties for non payment that the utility companies will surely apply. Make an application for Attendance Allowance as a DWP appointee until the deputyship overrides the appointeeship. I imagine that the social services will place him in a care home of their choice and pick up the tab in the meantime in the knowledge that they will be repaid quite promptly. Good luck.
  4. Onmyown

    Onmyown Registered User

    May 30, 2017
    Sorry no advice but just so sorry for you and your family and in shock that this could happen. You wouldn't treat a cat or a dog like this? Evicted from a hospital and it's up to you to find him a home? I really question what kind of a world we are living in. This is a man who worked all his life and paid taxes? Seems inhuman. I've been battling with poa for six years now and we could be too late to get it. I hope you can get him into a home soon. I would be up the walls if my mum was in this situation. There is no respect for people anymore just money and profit.
  5. SnowWhite

    SnowWhite Registered User

    Nov 18, 2016
    Sorry you're both in this situation. Try not to worry so much because there was a Portuguese man in a hospital near here who refused to leave and it took them well over two years to get rid of him!

    We are in a similar position. Mum was in a care home which was very neglectful and she had a bad fall and was rushed to hospital. She spent 10 weeks in two hospitals getting over that and in the meantime we emptied her room at the Care home as she was terrified to go back as they were so nasty to her.

    I looked at countless homes and we decided on a nursing home which was convenient to all the family as well. Sadly they had no places and we have been waiting several months now and are top of their list.

    After the 10 weeks in hospital we were asked to find her somewhere else as she was "medically fit for discharge" (even though she can't walk, needs assistance to go to toilet, is confused, has arthritis in her spine, has a stoma, etc). We are now paying for a respite bed for her at a council run place but they don't take people permanently which is a shame. So hopefully a bed will come up soon in the nursing home we have chosen.

    Does your Grandad own his own home? We had to sell Mums to pay for her care.
  6. TB2014

    TB2014 New member

    Nov 15, 2017
    Thank you all for your support and advice! He doesn't own his own home.. Complicated but basically the home was owned by his late wife who left it to her daughter in her will, with the understanding he would live there as long as required. He does have savings though. I will speak to my solicitor about the COP9 form. I work for a different NHS trust and haven't heard of this before! None of my colleagues have either, and I cannot find any policy on the matter! I appreciate winter pressures and he isn't in the right place, but I'm doing my best in a situation I'm learning about. I've spoken to my local social service team who won't entertain me! It seems because he has over the £23000 threshold no one is willing to help!
    Thanks again! I'll keep you update.
  7. Kevinl

    Kevinl Registered User

    Aug 24, 2013
  8. Mrnkar

    Mrnkar Registered User

    Oct 28, 2017
    The first thing, I hope you are appealing the decision to not get the CHC. I am in the process of having to do this myself. There is a very good website here which helps people who have been refused it. It's called care to be different.
    I have almost the same situation as you but the difference is my father, although diagnoised with dementia, has capacity and refuses to leave the hospital to go to a 24hr EMI nursing home, which he needs. He, has been there since August. The local authority found him a place, but at a meeting on Thursday I asked with happens if he refused to go and was told they could get the police to evict him but didn't really want to do that. The home have now refused him, as he goes on hunger, fluids, med strike etc, when he doesn't get his own way and they haven't been informed about that. The social services and hospital have now enlisted a care agency, to help me find a home, but i told them, I can't go against my father's wishes and so I won't be looking for anywhere for him, not sure where they can try and evict him to now or what's going to happen.
    My brother has POA but even with it, nothing can be done until my father loses capacity.
    I hope you get the help you need to sort all this out. This website will help you a lot
  9. TB2014

    TB2014 New member

    Nov 15, 2017
    Thank you for your advice. I initially told social services that I'd appeal the CHC decision but I just haven't had chance yet! Ive got a 9 month old daughter to sort out as well.. it's so difficult. But I'll definitely look at the link on here.
    I've put the COP9 form in via my solicitor, so fingers crossed I get him somewhere sorted very soon! The solicitor hasn't given me a time scale yet so I still feel frustrated.
    I hope you get something sorted with your father.
  10. Mrnkar

    Mrnkar Registered User

    Oct 28, 2017
    You should receive a letter with the decision on how to appeal. You have a very good case as they already told you firstly that it had been awarded and then they refused it. Question why that is. I urge you to make this a priority. Also regarding the FNC. Everyone who is going to a nursing home and had a CHC assessment, and do not get awarded CHC is entitled to it, although that's another thing that is kept from people.
    I have another meeting with the hospital on Tuesday regarding my father's discharge after they and social services basically want to know why I won't look for a home. I am banging my head against a brick wall, telling them, it is not up to me but them to sort it out, as I won't find somewhere my father does not wish to be. Wish me luck.
    I also don't even live here but abroad so I will tell them I am going back home and so they will have to sort it out.
    Good luck with your appeal.
  11. TB2014

    TB2014 New member

    Nov 15, 2017
    I've now got the COP9 intern through. It only took 6 days. They've only granted less than a quarter of what I asked for but I'm working with it.
    Secondly I have contacted the continuing health care team to request a copy of the 2 DST reports in order to appeal. I've been told that because I'm not POA I'm legally not allowed a copy. I'll have to wait for the deputyship to come through. Because I've put it in writing that I want to appeal I've been told it's now been actioned... I have no idea what to do from here..?
    This forum has been fantastic! I'd like to thank you all for your advice and support.
  12. Mrnkar

    Mrnkar Registered User

    Oct 28, 2017
    I think that's a lie about the DST's. I was at my father's meeting when it was filled in and got sent a copy 10 days later. I do not not have a POA. How can you appeal when you don't know what they have written on it to base your appeal on.
    This is part of the document that fits with the DST. Note point near the bottom regarding the completed DST
    1. If the person lacks the mental capacity to either refuse or to consent, a ‘best interests’ decision should be taken (and recorded) as to whether or not to proceed with assessment of eligibility for NHS continuing healthcare. Those making this decision should bear in mind the expectation that all who are potentially eligible for NHS continuing healthcare should have the opportunity to be considered for eligibility (see paragraph’s 48 - 51 in the National Framework). A third party cannot give or refuse consent for an assessment for NHS continuing healthcare on behalf of a person who lacks capacity unless they have a valid and applicable Lasting Power of Attorney (Welfare) or they have been appointed a Welfare Deputy by the Court of Protection. Any best interest decision to complete an assessment should be made in compliance with the Mental Capacity Act, e.g. with regard to consultation with relevant third parties.
    1. It is important to be aware that the fact that an individual may have significant difficulties in expressing their views does not of itself mean that they lack capacity. Appropriate support and adjustments should be made available in compliance with the Mental Capacity Act and with equalities legislation.
    1. Robust data-sharing protocols, both within an organisation and between organisations, will help to ensure that confidentiality is respected but that all necessary information is available to complete the DST.
    1. The DST provides practitioners with a needs-led approach by portraying need based on 12 ‘care domains’ (including an open domain for needs that do not readily fit into the other 11). The tool is in three sections:
    • Section 1 – Personal information.

    • Section 2 – Care domains.

    • Section 3 – Recommendations.
    All sections need to be completed.
    1. A copy of the completed DST (including the recommendation) should be forwarded to the individual (or, where appropriate, their representative) together with the final decision made by the CCG, along with the reasons for this decision.
  13. TB2014

    TB2014 New member

    Nov 15, 2017
    Thanks for that! I'll look into it. Thinking of inquiring about a solicitor for advice..
  14. Mrnkar

    Mrnkar Registered User

    Oct 28, 2017
    This is the other website I mentioned. Couldn't put a link before as I hadn't enough posts. Well worth reading, I learnt so much from it and what my appeal is based on.

  15. Louise7

    Louise7 Registered User

    Mar 25, 2016
    You really don't need to spend money on a solicitor. As previously stated, a copy of the completed DST should be provided to the individual or their representative (whether they have POA or not). Go back to the person who has informed you that you can't have a copy and advise that that as per the National Framework:

    A copy of the completed DST (including the recommendation) should be forwarded to the individual (or, where appropriate, their representative) together with the final decision made by the CCG, along with the reasons for this decision.

    In my Mum's case we were not provided with a copy of the check list or DST, or even informed that a DST was being completed. I was also not given the opportunity to provide input into the DST completion or attend MDT discussions (the form stated that I was 'unable to attend'). I was provided with the DST, reluctantly, when I requested it, and on receipt it was clear that a large amount of the content was not factual and parts appeared to have been cut & pasted from someone else's form (my Mum was even referred to by another name!). It appears that there are staff out there involved in the CHC process who either have no idea of the content of the National Framework or are deliberately ignoring it.
  16. Mrnkar

    Mrnkar Registered User

    Oct 28, 2017
    Totally agree with Louise, but it didn't even matter they way they fill in the DST, whether you are present or not, as i found out. No matter what i questioned, they never changed this. The DST couldn't even be completely completed at the meeting as when the nurses present were asked about some things regarding pain medication, why a catheter was still being used etc, they couldn't answer, but a level of need was scored anyway.
    When I received my copy of the DST supposedly filled in at the meeting, there were additions to it made and the worse blunder they made, was they signed my name on the form as an assessor of all things. I was also told at the meeting that my father didn't qualify, as no level of need was in the shaded area. I didn't know then, what i know now and that is, there will never be a level in the shaded area as it means it is N/A to the domain. Since found out I am not the only person this has been told to.

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