Power of attorney

[jayneebee]

Hi everyone,
I have been on this site a while ago with problems concerning a joint and several p.o.a. Today I have had enough of trying to look after money that the other p.o.a is intent on taking. I am looking after an awful lot of money and have come to the end of my tether! I have to check constantly to make sure money is still there but this was with NS & I or so I thought. I have just found out that many thousands of pounds have been taken and put into her bank account. Of course I cannot contact my solicitor until monday. I dont know wether I should take this further to the court of protection now.
Distraught.

 

[Sandy]

Hi jayneebee,

I'm sorry that your situation has not got any easier re: the POA problems.

Reading your previous posts it is clear to me that this is one area where you need to rely on the professional advice of your solicitor.

Take care,

 

[jayneebee]

Thankyou Sandy. Do you think I should wait till monday or phone the Compliance and regulation unit with the court of protection cos I really feel that this is being mis-handled.

 

[Sandy]

Hi jayneebee,

If you can't reach your solicitor today, I suppose there would be no harm is calling the COP today to discuss your concerns.

My instinct is generally not to do anything in haste that might have repercussions later, but as you have been dealing with the COP for sometime, if you feel comfortable ringing them today then that might be an option.

This is obviously weighing on your mind - but try not to panic! Unless your step-sister is planning to run away to Rio tomorrow, Monday is not very far away.

Take care,

 

[jayneebee]

Hi Sandy,
Thats true! Just needed to talk to someone, thankyou.

 

[Sandy]

No problem - anytime

 

[sue38]

Hi Jayneebee,

I can't remember, has the POA been registered with the COP?

If so the COP has wide powers to regulate the conduct of the attorneys and check that they are carrying out their duties properly. They do rely on any misconduct being brought to their attention, and I would give them a ring for advice, if you can't get hold of your solicitor.

If the POA has not been registered, I would suggest that you, and you alone, apply to register it.

 

[jayneebee]

Hi Sue,
Yes, I registered the POA myself earlier this year. I will speak with the solicitor on monday but I would like the COP to handle this as I am extremely worried about looking after all this money. I have the number for the fraud and investigation unit unit. I dont think I can deal with this anymore. Surely anyone just cant take a large amount of money and put it in their own bank account. She is maintaining it was a gift but the money has only been taken recently but the POA has been in force for a year.

 

[jenniferpa]

We've had this discussion about gifts before on the website, although normally from the other POV - what would be reasonable for me to take as a gift. My feeling is that a gift is reasonable if it is in line what would have been given before or if it is a major life event (marriage. birth of a grandchild) etc. Even then. what might be reasonable for person A might be completely unreasonable for person B, so you can't be rigid about it.

As a side bar, I do wish the COP would put out guidelines on this, based on say, a percentage, but I suppose they feel that might put ideas into peoples heads.

 

[jayneebee]

Hi Jennifer,
The thing is that this money is tens of thousands not just a couple of thousand. There is no way my stepfather would have given even a few hundred to anyone as a gift, he has always been very careful with his money.

 

[jenniferpa]

In a way, that's good - it sounds so totally out of line, that it makes it obvious that there was bad intent.

 

[fredsnail]

Surely anyone just cant take a large amount of money and put it in their own bank account. She is maintaining it was a gift but the money has only been taken recently but the POA has been in force for a year.

That amount of money even as a gift would be highly suspicious to the local authority as a delibrate deprivation of assets. Surely even if it had been verbally agreed as a gift the fact that there is a POA in place would mean that such agreements must be treated with extreme caution. My Grandfather has told me to take x amount out of his money to buy x,y or z. I've always refused as it's not right - and I will continue to refuse, because it would be taking advantage of a vunerable man.

If it isn't a gift the Attorney must not mix the money - it must be seperately accounted for.

I hope that the OPG pull their finger out and take appropriate action in this matter - good luck.

fs

 

[jayneebee]

Hi fs,
Yes I agree. The trouble is that all along I have had to watch the money because my stepsister has been under the impression that all her fathers 'estate' is hers (there are two other siblings). My mother does not come into the equation, according to her, even though she is his wife of 30 years.She quoted to me at the beginning that 'the solicitor at the time had told her that she could do anything she wanted with the money'. My mum is going to need a substantial amount of it to pay for my stepfathers care as she is in her 80's and cannot manage much longer. It is terrible that all this is causing worry when a POA should be making things easier!
I dont understand how she got the premium bonds cashed in anyway. I was still banking prizes for him up to last month. Does anyone know if a POA can do this? I thought they were not transferable and could only be cashed in by the holder.
You can see why I would prefer the COP to handle this now.

 

[Sandy]

Hi jayneebee,

I would have thought that, unless they were explicitly excluded in the power of attorney document, that an attorney could cash in premium bonds.

As your step sister is so concerned about her dad's estate, do you know if he's made a will and how the assets are distributed amongst the family?

As far as needing to pay for care, does your step sister have aby idea how much weekly care home (let alone nursing homes places for people with dementia) fees are? Depending on where you live and the level of care needed, it could be anywhere from £600 to £1,000 per week.

There is always the possibility of NHS Continuing Care, but very few people get that initially.

If your dad's assets fall below a certain level, then Social Services will pay (http://www.alzheimers.org.uk/factsheet/468), but as fredsnail has already pointed out, they will first do a financial assessment against your father's accounts and any major discrepancies will be investigated and could be treated as deprivation of assets.

Take care,

 

[jayneebee]

Hi Sandy,
My mum maintains that the bonds just dissappeared from the house and he would not have given them as a gift.
Yes i do know how the will has been written. The house is in my stepfathers name but his estate is to be left to my mum and when my mum is no longer with us it will be divided up equally amongst my 3 stepsisters and myself. The same is true of my mothers will.

 

[Sandy]

Hi jayneebee,

Well the will situation sounds extremely equitable, so I don't know why your step sister is being so grasping now.

I don't think that your step sister would need the physical bonds or even the bond numbers to cash them in. All she would have to do is write to National Savings with your dad's details and send along a certified copy of the EPA.

However, as you are also an attorney, I would have thought that your could also write to National Savings with the same info and certified copy of the EPA and ask for any details of transactions made regarding your dad's assets.

Take care,

 

[jayneebee]

Hi Sandy,
I am already on the same track as you and wrote to them yesterday asking for all the details.

 

[jayneebee]

Forgot to say that they already have my registered copy of the EPA and had my address down for all corresspondence. They were sending me prize draws in his name up till mid July.

 

[Nebiroth]

Well all this is very worrying.

I see no reason why an attorney could not cash premium bonds, if they were not specifically excluded in the EPA, then an attorney would have control over them (as they have over all financial affairs).

However, an attorney must act in the best interests of the donor, and must also not act to advantage of themselves.

There is nothing to say that an attorney could not give themselves gifts - but this would only be reasonable if the donor had already been doing so (for example, regular birthday and Christmas gifts) and then only what would be considered reasonable amounts: that is, in proportion to the assets of the donor and also in line with gifts that the donor themselves had made in the past. An attorney awarding themselves very substantial gifts out of the blue would not I think be considered reasonable.

I would guess that the only exception would be "lifetime events" such as a marriage, and then I would think that these would need to be in line with, say, the ones which are tax free under the Inherticance Tax rules; anything more would be regarded as in doubt.

I think you are right, that this should be brought to the attention of the COP.

Also, this could very well fall foul of the "deprivation of assets" rules; there can be little doubt that someone who had lost mental capacity would be regarded as being forseeable need of care.

Lastly when you say you mum will need money to pay for your stepfasther's care: only your stepfather's assets can be taken into consideration when it comes to assessing payment of care fees. The only things that can be taken into account are assets that are wholly or jointly owned by your stepfather. Your mum's own assets cannot be taken into account. Also, so long as your mum is resident in the property, the home must be disregarded - even if your stepfather is the sole owner (though this is unsualy, properties are normally jointly owned). Plus, the local authority must leave your mum a reasonable income - if her own income does not meet that level, then some of your stepfather's must be passed to her regardless of any decisions about care fees. They cannot take all of your stepfather's income if this leaves your mum with little or none of her own. Couples have quite strong protections in this regard.

 

[jayneebee]

Yes I am extremely worried! I just cant see my stepfather giving these bonds to her years ago as she says. he never gave anything away. Christmas presants and birthdays were usually just a bottle of wine or similar. It was a standing joke that he never spent his money but saved it.