Power of attorney and problematic brother

[Madspaceangel]

Mum just gone into a assessment bed but looks like she will be staying. She has incapacity and my brother and I have power of attorney but can act independently. Hes not talking to me so I dont know why he is taking out large amounts of money out of her account. He hasnt registered with the bank and using mmums cards. Ive reported it but social services trying to defend him. Maybe they had an arrangement !

He also will not give me access to her house. Has anyone else had this problem.
Solicitor doesn't know how to help get me access to the house

 

[Jessbow]

You need to talk to Office of the Public guardian ( OPG) about the money movements

 

[Madspaceangel]

I have and they advised a solicitor. Today I reported it to the fraud department at the bank and told to call the police. Reported it to her social worker who said they are opening a enquiry, they had a name for it, however the head of social work phoned this afternoon accusing me of making assumptions about his actions. £7500 out of her account since she went into hospital in October after a fall and hip replacement. I said I had concerns so felt I had done the right thing, so did the bank.

Ive just messaged a locksmith to see if he can help.

Glad Ive found this group. People dont understand. Everyone Ive spoken to has the perfect family. Feeling very judged and frustrated

 

[Wildflowerlady]

I'm pretty sure he shouldn't be using your mum's cards at all but should have registered the POA and been given his own cards. If you hold POA too can the Social Services department not explain a bit more to you? I'm not sure what you can do about getting entry to her house maybe try a locksmith?

 

[Wildflowerlady]

I have and they advised a solicitor. Today I reported it to the fraud department at the bank and told to call the police. Reported it to her social worker who said they are opening a enquiry, they had a name for it, however the head of social work phoned this afternoon accusing me of making assumptions about his actions. £7500 out of her account since she went into hospital in October after a fall and hip replacement. I said I had concerns so felt I had done the right thing, so did the bank.

Ive just messaged a locksmith to see if he can help.

Glad Ive found this group. People dont understand. Everyone Ive spoken to has the perfect family. Feeling very judged and frustrated

Our posts must have crossed but see you have thought of a locksmith. Believe me lots of not so perfect families about. I have a sister we had lots of disagreements and since our dad passed in January 2021 no longer speak.

 

[Madspaceangel]

Ive messaged a locksmith but as usual nothings simple, She also has an alarm.
My brother should have registered his POA with the bank. But we where led to believe that we had to meet together to register by the POA team at the bank of Scotland. so guessing he just thought he could just carry on using her card! However I went into my local branch and they registered me no questions asked. Got a look at her account last night. he took took 11 payments of £250 in March alone. The full amount you can access from a cash machine.
social service think this is maybe acceptable and Im assuming hes up to no good. Ive just done what I think was right.
Mums asked him to give me a key but at the end of the day she will have his back. Just hope if they talk to her its on a bad day. Does this make me a bad person. Mums dementia is getting worse with the stress and Im the one shes turning on.
So emotive but all black and white with the social worker this afternoon. Hard not to feel hurt even when you know its not rational.

 

[concerned4]

Sorry to hear about your situation, sadly this is becoming all too common, having being in a similar position to yourself & in Scotland it is a difficult call as rules are different all over the UK, if you engage a solicitor going down that route will be hugely expensive talking from experience there, you have alerted the bank & that you have registered POA with them , ask them if they can cancel the card that your brother is using & get them to ask him to register POA with them, at this point he should be fully aware of the responsibility & possible repercussions if he does not follow the guidelines & can be held accountable, probably not for the money he has already but going forward. What I can say from experience is if your brother engages a solicitor they will try & push it as being a Civil case as opposed to Criminal, the Police might not want to get involved & might take the view it is a Civil case & not progress, the good thing if anything at this point is you have highlighted early, the OPG will not from experience get involved unless the bank or a Professional person highlights a concern. All the best.

 

[Canna]

I'm pretty sure it's illegal to use someone else's bank card. I jokingly mentioned it to the bank staff as an option when I was trying to sort out PoA for my mum, and they were horrified, and told me that it would be considered fraud.

 

[Jaded'n'faded]

One way to stop him would be to report your mum's card as stolen then he won't be able to use it.

Basically he's helping himself to you mum's money and needs to be stopped! If Social Services are paying for your mum's care they will consider this Deprivation of Assets and will pursue him for the money. He shouldn't be using the cards anyway as others have said - it is illegal.

Report to the OPG, the bank, Social Services and the Police. Also get a solicitor to write to him to tell him you have done this and that the OPG will be investigating.

 

[MaNaAk]

My friend gave her former her bank and asked him to draw out money for her which he did alongwith £400 for himself. The police were involved and asked her whether she would like to have him arrested. He wasn't arrested but you could try the police and see what they say. I'm afraid a lot of us this forum have difficult siblings and @Jessbow christened mine gremlins!

MaNaAk

 

[Madspaceangel]

Just a wee update. The bank have refunded all the money he has taken out since mum went into hospital as fraud refund I think mainly because he was using her cards.. I asked why they would refund to an account he has access to now. Police have been to visit me and he will be questioned this week, My biggest worry is the police are going to interview mum So unfair it will terrify her. If police take it seriously will try to get him taken of the bank account.

My brother has been to visit her and told her I've taken her money I didn't have access to her account when he robbed her I visited Saturday she was raging at me. He has made her agitated and her Parkinsons is definitely worse. Hes not safeguarding her welfare. I think she should be oblivious to what's going on ? I got the locks on her house changed after contacting lots of locksmiths In the end I got it done because the locksmith had been through something similar.. Police wont get involved as a civil matter. Thought I would update encase this can help anyone else and needed to vent x

 

[concerned4]

My biggest mistake was stopping police interview my father, for the exact reason you have described,this would have shown clearly that he had lost capacity. As the bank have refunded the money surely they should intervene & ask him to register POA, this way it will be highlighted to him that he is accountable for any funds taken out & if they are not used for your mums benefit he must provide receipts? Also think you are doing so but take a note of all expenditure & whose card is being used.

 

[Madspaceangel]

My biggest mistake was stopping police interview my father, for the exact reason you have described,this would have shown clearly that he had lost capacity. As the bank have refunded the money surely they should intervene & ask him to register POA, this way it will be highlighted to him that he is accountable for any funds taken out & if they are not used for your mums benefit he must provide receipts? Also think you are doing so but take a note of all expenditure & whose card is being used.

Police already aware she is deemed incapacitated. I know they have to follow policies but they aren't considering her welfare. She tried to defend him on Saturday but it was , well for the lack of a better word, demented. Bank told me he wouldn't be able to register poa until investigation was over but he managed to register. He is still taking out cash and not talking to me so no idea what he's spending it on. Not mum thats for sure. Police should make a decision this week. Just so frustrating seeing her so upset, There is no excuse for it

Good advice I can account for every penny Ive spent everything noted and receipts to hand

 

[Banjomansmate]

If you have been given Power of Attorney there is actually nobody to be “accountable “ to when it comes to dealing with the donor’s money in the same way you have to provide yearly accounts to OPG when you are appointed Deputy. This is how unscrupulous people get away with misappropriation of the donor’s funds.
My view was that I was accountable to The Banjoman while he was alive and then accountable to his executrix once he died, so I kept her informed of things that I did.

 

[canary]

Have you contacted the OPG about this?
Although attorneys arnt "accountable" to anyone, the OPG does have the power to remove attorneys, although they will only act if there is solid evidence. The evidence here seems pretty solid to me.

 

[MartinWL]

Have you contacted the OPG about this?
Although attorneys arnt "accountable" to anyone, the OPG does have the power to remove attorneys, although they will only act if there is solid evidence. The evidence here seems pretty solid to me.

Good advice from @canary. Also do instruct the bank to cancel all payment cards. It is probably best not to have any. If you need to buy things, pay for them yourself and use online banking to reimburse yourself, keeping receipts and records of course.

The difficulty here is not knowing for sure what your brother has done with any money he has taken. He may claim to have used it for your mum's benefit. That horse may now have bolted.

 

[Madspaceangel]

The bank of Scotland has said that the money going out of mums account has to only spent on her and we are accountable for any money going out as did social worker. Waiting to here back from the police. We went to visit a couple of weeks ago but she was to agitated and angry for any sort of conversation. I really hope he can account for the £30000 he has taken in the last two years.
I am using internet banking and stating what everything coming out is for. ie £250 wheel chair. £2800 recliner raiser chair. so it shows on her statement. Wish I could switch off from it all. Because im a nurse Im maybe a bit overboard with having everything above board and documented. Hoping I can get him out of the bank.
He also has a joint account with my mum. She put £25000 into it. Ive been told I cant get access to it. Anyone else had any experience of this ?
Thank you everyone for taking time to reply

Good advice from @canary. Also do instruct the bank to cancel all payment cards. It is probably best not to have any. If you need to buy things, pay for them yourself and use online banking to reimburse yourself, keeping receipts and records of course.

The difficulty here is not knowing for sure what your brother has done with any money he has taken. He may claim to have used it for your mum's benefit. That horse may now have bolted.

 

[MartinWL]

What the bank of Scotland say is right. The difficulty is finding out what he has done with the money. If he has invested it in the stock market in your mother's name then he has not done anything much wrong. I know that is unlikely.

Whilst not a specific offence an attorney having a joint account with the cared-for person is very dubious indeed. The cared-for person's money should be kept separate from the attorney's own funds.

Do pursue getting the OPG to investigate as nobody else has the power to compel your brother to come clean.

 

[concerned4]

If you have been given Power of Attorney there is actually nobody to be “accountable “ to when it comes to dealing with the donor’s money in the same way you have to provide yearly accounts to OPG when you are appointed Deputy. This is how unscrupulous people get away with misappropriation of the donor’s funds.
My view was that I was accountable to The Banjoman while he was alive and then accountable to his executrix once he died, so I kept her informed of things that I did.

Just picked up on this & have to say disagree, you are accountable to ”look after” the donors funds & spend them for the person with dementias best interests, keeping records, receipts etc , should there be a point where there is a concern as to how funds have been used, then you have accounts to show expenditure so that there will be no issues if investigations in to deprivation of assets etc are all above board.

 

[Duggies-girl]

Just picked up on this & have to say disagree, you are accountable to ”look after” the donors funds & spend them for the person with dementias best interests, keeping records, receipts etc , should there be a point where there is a concern as to how funds have been used, then you have accounts to show expenditure so that there will be no issues if investigations in to deprivation of assets etc are all above board.

I never kept receipts for day to day spending, dad always spent the same and that wasn't much. It would be a good idea to keep receipts for out of the ordinary expensive items. Dad bought a new mattress and a couple of expensive TV's and I kept those receipts but that's all.

If you have deputyship then yes you do have keep all receipts.