Personal allowance to be paid to the care home!

Discussion in 'Welcome and how to use Dementia Talking Point' started by zena285, Feb 9, 2016.

  1. zena285

    zena285 Registered User

    Oct 14, 2013
    My mum is in a care home, she has mixed dementia. She is LA funded/Nursing care allowance. My sister and I have both LPA's for Finance and Health.

    I have just received a letter from her care home stating that due to a recent case where an appointee had fraudently used a residents money, the Social Services had been in touch with the home for them to ensure that all residents receive their £24.90 weekly allowance with which to pay for their personal toiletries, clothes etc. In order to comply with the Social Services and the Homes obligation they would like all the weekly payments to be paid to the Home where they administer them for the residents. We will be allowed to view any expenditure made on behalf of the residents.

    Does that mean the Care Home is now going to be responsible for buying my mum's clothes etc which my sister and I already buy, buy birthday cards etc that we buy for her grandchildren on her behalf, will we have to supply the Home with the addresses, dates of birth of her fifteen grandchildren and nine great grandchildren and possibly of her eight children!

    And what is the point of us having LPA for Finances if the Care Home want to do it?
  2. zena285

    zena285 Registered User

    Oct 14, 2013
    My initial reaction to the letter was to let them get on with it, they can judge when my mum needs something, it is one less thing for my sister and I to do.

    We visit my mum four days a week, so we are quite aware if she is short of anything, and have had no problem in replacing or buying her things and we can account for every penny of her personal allowance. I actually feel quite angry that the Care Home appear to be taking over the last little bit that we can do for my mum.
  3. cragmaid

    cragmaid Registered User

    Oct 18, 2010
    North East England
    At my late Mum's CH, I used to keep a balance of £50 in her account with them and top it up as and when it was needed. That paid for her trips out, donations or collections for friends' birthdays and hairdressing or chiropody. When she died she had a balance of £137 to be returned to me. She might have spent more in her early days at the CH because she went out with friends more but by the end I would not have paid her £20 plus every week, unless it was especially needed.
  4. Saffie

    Saffie Registered User

    Mar 26, 2011
    Near Southampton
    I don't think this is right at all.
    As long as money is available for any expenditure within the home, I don't see it as the business of the NH how an attourney manages the rest of the money.
    The LA will want to ensure that the fees are paid and that the balance of capital is correct but surely, as the holder of the LPA your mother's expenditure is down to you.

    I used to leave a certain amount in the home so that money was available but that is all.
  5. nitram

    nitram Registered User

    Apr 6, 2011
    North Manchester
    If a person is LA funded the LA have a duty to make sure that the PEA is available to the resident.

    It appears that an appointee, who can only administer payments received from the DWP, was using the PEA paid into the appointee account for other than the residents benefit.

    The home should put it into the resident's personal account and control how it is spent.
    I would expect the home to reimburse relatives for any reasonable expenditure, clothing, birthday and Christmas cards, small gifts for grand children,...Or they could give cash to the relative to use to buy the more expensive items and expect the relative to return any excess with a receipt.

    An attorney has the responsibility for all the resident's finances and the LA has a separate duty to ensure that the PEA is available to the resident.
  6. Essie

    Essie Registered User

    Feb 11, 2015
    Hi Zena, I have to say I agree with Saffie. I used to leave a certain amount 'on account' for Mum at her nursing home and they would let me know when it was running low but other than that they never tried to administer the money themselves. I have serious doubts over the legality of what they have said - how can the home take charge of Mum's PA, they don't have POA, you do, and why should the incorrect actions of one person dictate policy for everybody, that's surely not how to do it? Like you say, it's the last little bit of 'independence' your Mum still has. I would simply say 'No, I'm afraid we won't be doing that'.
  7. zena285

    zena285 Registered User

    Oct 14, 2013
    Thank you all for listening and your comments. It helps to think things through with people in the same boat.:)

    Whenever we have been asked in the past by the Home for extra funding we have always obliged without question. My mum is quite advanced in her illness now so does not go out on day trips, she rarely gets involved in any of the activities in the home as she seems to be happy in her own little world. We buy all her toiletries, clothes etc as we know what she likes so any funding for the Home to use would be minimal. My mum's money, what little she has sits in a savings account accruing minimal interest but it's better it her pocket than anyone elses.

    I have spoken to the manager this afternoon, I wasn't the first one to have issue with the letter, she said the phone hasn't stopped ringing but she said it was a policy that the County Social Services wanted implemented and she was just the messenger. She also said that the letter was a generic one. I reminded her that as we had LPA and that we visited my mum every week, got her whatever she needed that I would not be complying with her letter and that should Social Services have any issues could she get them to contact me.

    It still makes me wonder what is the point of LPA finance if other organisations are going to be the ones who make decisions about her finances.:confused:

    And I just want to add I am really lucky that my seven siblings are always supportive and are kept in the loop in how the finances regarding my mum are handled.:)
  8. Pete R

    Pete R Registered User

    Jul 26, 2014
    I have never come across that before so I take it you can back that up with legislation/guidance?
  9. Pete R

    Pete R Registered User

    Jul 26, 2014
    Hi zena285,

    As most others have said this is otherwise unheard of. If the manager has had a letter then you should ask for a copy (please pass one on if you do:))

    Unless a court decides otherwise those with PoA have control of finances including the PEA.

  10. nitram

    nitram Registered User

    Apr 6, 2011
    North Manchester
    "I have never come across that before so I take it you can back that up with legislation/guidance?"

    It was in CRAG

    Amount of personal expenses allowance
    5.001 In assessing a resident's ability to pay for his accommodation, the LA is required to ensure that he retains an amount for personal expenses. Section 22(4)

    There's a list somewhere of what bits of CRAG are cancelled.

    It makes sense though, when a resident is fully funded by the LA the LA pays all the income, less 50% personal pension if appropriate, to the care home but has to make sure the PEA is retained solely for the resident's benefit.
  11. Pete R

    Pete R Registered User

    Jul 26, 2014
    #11 Pete R, Feb 9, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2016
    CRAG has gone. It was you that posted a list of other Acts that also went at the same time but your reading of CRAG is not correct, the person does retain the PEA but no where does it say it goes to the CH.

    Even when a resident is fully funded by the LA the LA will normally pay the CH first and then bill the person/PoA who then pays the LA from the persons account. The PEA is left in the persons account to be used as they/PoA deems fit. A CH has no legal basis to distribute the PEA without authority from the person themselves/PoA.
  12. garnuft

    garnuft Registered User

    Sep 7, 2012
    it sounds to me like a private business trying to keep cash flowing through their accounts.

    I think you did the right thing Zena, if Social Services have any issues they must contact you.

    My Pappy-in-law is new to life in a care home, we left a petty cash of £40 but he's had quite a few outings in the last week and is now skint :), he's self-funding so we've topped it up and the admin woman is going to give us a ring when he needs more...chiropodist, haircuts...gallivanting.:)

    I think the point about LA's and personal allowance is that, that money is ring fenced and must be outside of any financial assessments, it's not that they have a duty to make sure a person receives the PA, they have a duty not to include it in any calculations.
  13. ratlady

    ratlady Registered User

    Sep 21, 2015
    Are people with dementia just 'cash generators' for care homes?

    In a similar vein - would appreciate some advice as care home keeping my Mum alive just for the money.........

    I am at my wits end. My Mother is in excruciating pain, due to arthritis, osteoporosis, and fibromyalgia, and wishes to die, but has dementia so the care home staff put her requests to be allowed to die as just the dementia talking. She has a living will legally drawn up stating that if her life reaches the stage she is now is then she does not want artificial feeding (she has a problem swallowing so they are now thickening her drinks which she refuses but somehow they are getting them down her). A local hospice will take her to manage her pain as she is at the end stage, but the GP is acting as a gate keeper and not acknowledging that according to her own wishes she has reached the stage where strong analgesia is needed to manage her symptoms.

    If my Mother was dying of cancer then she would be in a hospice.

    Interestingly she has a small sarcoma on her cheek, and when I pointed out that denying her needs now will only result in the cancer developing and eating her face, the GPs response was "well we all have to die of something".

    As we are paying £3,400 per month, I suspect that's the real reason they are keeping her 'alive'.............

    I feel helpless as I have always promised her I would not allow this to happen to her but I have no means to act as her advocate all the time the care home staff are allowing their own views and beliefs to determine what her needs are, not her living will and they certainly do not listen to me.........even though I have PoA.
  14. fizzie

    fizzie Registered User

    Jul 20, 2011
    I'm sorry I don't quite understand, if the hospice will take her why can't you just move her straight away? She has a living will, the hospice have agreed, just arrange a private ambulance to move her? The GP can't over rule the patient and the family and the hospice and if he is then he needs reporting but you don't have time to do that so ask the hospice to deal with it - they will have come across similar before. It is outrageous for one person to keep someone in agony like this when there are acceptable (to the person and the family) alternatives. Go along to the hospice, explain the situation to them and ask them to deal with it. The GP practices are sometimes in very close relationships with care homes and usually it is fine but sometimes it doesn't work.

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