Moving Countries

[greentoad]

Hi all
I've got a situation where my family is no longer able to provide adequate care for my dad with Vascular Dementia as his needs have increased.
he currently lives in England in supported living. we think his needs now require a residential care home. All of us (including my dad) would like him to move closer to me in Wales, from what we gather he needs to be assessed by his Local authority he currently resides in. unfortunately his current finance situation is that he is above the threshold for care provided (23k) and will need to go private.
However in Wales the threshold is much higher (50k) he is in between these two thresholds. we would like to move him to cardiff as a private payment. As soon as possible but we are confused to what the criteria are for accepting him as a "resident"

my fear is that he will move to wales and Cardiff will refuse him as a resident and lay the responsibility to England to pick up his duty of care, in which case he will loose lots of money paying privately before he is reassessed in Cardiff. resulting him in significantly impacting his choice of homes. or there will be a bureaucratic table tennis situation where neither council pays his money once he is below the threshold for England. and the situation will get very difficult!

for info he currently hasn't been assessed in either council but have started the process in England (liverpool). we have found a great home in Cardiff but we're unsure if he needs to wait in England first for assesment or if we can expedite the process and move him privately to Cardiff as soon as possible. we are also concerned this popular and cheap care home may fill up before he can get assesed in england


So my question is:
has anyone had any similar experience with moving from England to Wales or dealing with social care services between nations?
does anyone have any experience from Cardiff council specifically in how they class someone as a "resident"?
does anyone have experience of how long it takes to be re-assessed once you go below the threshold?
finally: what do you reckon, secure the home and then ask Cardiff for assessment or ask Liverpool for assessment first and wait for them to tell us the obvious.

Thanks everyone!

 

[Kevinl]

Absolutely no idea what the qualifications are at all, so sorry. Things like being on the electoral register, registered with a GP, possibly might make him a Welsh citizen, normally the rules in England and Wales are concurrent, Scotland and NI do vary. No help just a thank you from me. K

 

[SeaSwallow]

Hello @greentoad and welcome to the Dementia Support Forum. I do not have an answer for you but would suggest that you contact the social services department in Wales to ask what their position would be on such a move.

 

[nitram]

Ordinary residence & social care in Wales

https://www.lukeclements.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/SSWA-OR-detailed-briefing.pdf

 

[Dave63]

Is this article of any help?

Moving to an out-of-area care home

Beth Britton answers some common questions about care home placements when you’ve decided to move to a different county or region Deciding the location of

www.carechoices.co.uk

Also this article:

https://www.carehome.co.uk/advice/cross-border-placements

A forum thread from 10 years ago so may not be up to date on criteria:

Moving into a care home in another uk country

My mum is currently in hospital and will have to be discharged to a care home (nursing dementia EMI the consultant felt a couple weeks ago but she does seem more settled now) not sure of timescales on this but trying to get up to speed I want to move her from Scotland to wales as she has...

forum.alzheimers.org.uk

The Care Act 2014 guidance on cross border placements:

Cross Border Placement

www.proceduresonline.com

 

[Dave63]

finally: what do you reckon, secure the home and then ask Cardiff for assessment or ask Liverpool for assessment first and wait for them to tell us the obvious.

Without fully understanding the rules or criteria my gut would be to secure the Cardiff home and then ask for an assessment when it's needed. If Liverpool do the assessment then, if I've read the guidance correctly, that would mean they would be responsible for funding the placement in Wales which may throw a spanner in the works?

The caveat here is, I have no idea what I'm talking about . Would it be worth making a couple of discreet calls to some Cardiff care homes to see if they have any experience or advice regarding cross border placements?

 

[nitram]

Without fully understanding the rules or criteria my gut would be the secure the Cardiff home and then ask for an assessment when it's needed. If Liverpool do the assessment then, if I've read the guidance correctly, that would mean they would be responsible for funding the placement in Wales which may throw a spanner in the works?

Agree

 

[Hima]

Hi,
Contact both Liverpool and Cardiff authorities to understand the residency and financial assessment processes. Secure a place in the Cardiff care home while seeking expedited assessment. Make use of the social care services for guidance through the transition. Hope you sort things soon.

 

[greentoad]

Hello @greentoad and welcome to the Dementia Support Forum. I do not have an answer for you but would suggest that you contact the social services department in Wales to ask what their position would be on such a move.

Hi thanks for your reply. yea i did give them a ring but as dad is"ordinarily a resident in liverpool they advised that he is assessed in liverpool first. they weren't able to tell me if he would count as a welsh resident after moving privately, and there were too many factors at play (current lack of assesment, mental capcity, residential rules) they couldn't give me an answer. they were quite keen to emphasize it was currently liverpools responsibility.

 

[greentoad]

Absolutely no idea what the qualifications are at all, so sorry. Things like being on the electoral register, registered with a GP, possibly might make him a Welsh citizen, normally the rules in England and Wales are concurrent, Scotland and NI do vary. No help just a thank you from me. K

Thanks Kevinl, these might be some good steps in "suring up" his reseidential status once moved. will put them on to do list. thanks!

 

[greentoad]

Thank You Nitram i think this isthe answer i need

highlighted From the doc for others reference:

"The Part 11 Code of Practice (p.29) summarises this finding in the following terms: In particular, local authorities should apply the principle that ordinary residence is the place the person has voluntarily adopted for a settled purpose, whether for a short or long duration. Ordinary residence can be acquired as soon as the person moves to an area, if their move is voluntary and for settled purposes, irrespective of whether they own, or have an interest in, a property in another local authority area. There is no minimum period in which a person has to be living in a particular place for them to be considered ordinarily resident there, because it depends on the nature and quality of the connection with the new place"

there is however a slight issue in asserting if someone moved "voluntarily" if someone is deemed to lack capacity in this case below:

Milton Keynes Council v. Scottish Ministers (2015)22 concerned an elderly woman (Mrs R) who formerly lived in in Milton Keynes and for whom Milton Keynes Council was appointed her property and affairs deputy (she lacked capacity to decide where she should live). Her daughter identified a care home in Scotland near to where she lived and to which Mrs R moved: although the home was in the area East Lothian Council, it had no involvement in the placement. Subsequently the daughter was appointed deputy in place of Milton Keynes Council (ie with property and affairs powers) and the question arose as which authority was responsible. The Scottish ministers (upheld by the Court of Session) held that as she lacked capacity, ordinary residence could only change where there had been appointed a welfare guardian or attorney who gave legal authority. The daughter’s lack of capacity to make decisions regarding her mother’s personal welfare was fatal to any prospect of a finding that, notwithstanding the duration of Mrs R’s presence in Scotland, there had been a change of her ordinary residence from Milton Keynes to East Lothian. Arguably this finding might have been otherwise (in an England / Wales context) had the move occurred after the daughter had obtained her attorney powers and had effected the move as a s5 MCA 2005 ‘act’ and/or the mother had shown that she wanted to remain and felt content in Scottish placement.23

in other words, if deemd to lack capacity, and no legal Power of authority has been placed then voluntarily moved for oridinary resident status may not apply. but this principle has gone untested in England And Wales.

Thankfully we do have power of attonrey and im pretty sure although dad may lack some capcity he will be and has been in agreement that moving to wales to be near family will be a good move. hopefully he can communicate that closer to the time given his dementia.

i think then we will move him to wales as soon as we can. and have his intentions documented hopefully.

 

[nitram]

i think then we will move him to wales as soon as we can. and have his intentions documented hopefully.

And register him on the Electoral Roll in Wales?