1. kirst

    kirst Registered User

    Jul 9, 2007
    22
    east riding
    does any one know i had a call from my dads social worker today she said when my dad becomes a permenat resident they get all his money and us to pay 15 pound a week top up and my dad will get 20 pound a week for things he needs like toiletries etc does this sound right any advice would help thank you
     
  2. Margarita

    Margarita Registered User

    Feb 17, 2006
    10,824
    london
    #2 Margarita, Jul 18, 2007
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2007
    I am sure that wrong that your have to pay £15 .

    do they say why they asking your family to pay £15 ?


    But they right that they get all his money if his not self founded and he keeps £20 a week.

    and if self founded , they still get all his money till it below a level
     
  3. kirst

    kirst Registered User

    Jul 9, 2007
    22
    east riding
    all i was told is that it is the top up fee
     
  4. May

    May Registered User

    Oct 15, 2005
    627
    Yorkshire
    Kirst

    Have you chosen the home for your Dad? If so all this should have been explained by the home management to you so that you had the chance to question any fees. My Mum went into a home we chose in March and most that I visited had 'top-up' fees, although not all. If it's of any help. my Mum is local authority funded. They only pay up to a certain amount and we have a top-up fee of £16 per week to pay, this cannot be paid by Mum from her small savings but must be paid by a third party. All Mum's pension goes to her care and she only gets to keep £20.50 for a personal allowance.

    My advice, contact the helpline number

    ask them your questions, also if your Dad is on pension contact DWP, we found them extremely hepful re what allowances would be.
    Also look at the factsheets on here regarding financial matters (top left hand corner of the home page.)

    Good luck and stay in touch.

    PS. Last thought, pin that social worker down and ask lots of questions, a phone call is just not good enough!!!!:mad:
     
  5. Norman

    Norman Registered User

    Oct 9, 2003
    4,348
    Birmingham Hades
  6. Margarita

    Margarita Registered User

    Feb 17, 2006
    10,824
    london
    I wonder Norman what happen if the person has no relatives to pay the top up

    Or they themselves where on a low income so could not pay it for them ?
     
  7. Natashalou

    Natashalou Registered User

    Mar 22, 2007
    426
    london
    Ive been wondering this too. I understood the fees were paid once mothers money dropped below about 21k. We are a long way from this stage, but when we get there, I cant for the life of me see why she shouldnt pay the top up out of her remaining assets. That just seems ridiculous.
     
  8. Margarita

    Margarita Registered User

    Feb 17, 2006
    10,824
    london
    Looks like we are Just left wondering :rolleyes:
     
  9. jenniferpa

    jenniferpa Volunteer Moderator

    Jun 27, 2006
    39,418
    Natashalou: I don't believe that when the assets hit the threshold the LA immediately pays ALL of the home fees: there's a sliding scale.

    As to the "what happens if there's no one else to pay", sadly I think the answer to that is that the person in question would be placed in a home where there were no top up fees, even if that meant moving them out of the LA's area. There was a thread elsewhere on the boards (not sure where) where someone posted from Leamington that there were NO homes in the area that didn't require top ups, so people were being placed in other cheaper areas.
     
  10. Sandy

    Sandy Registered User

    Mar 23, 2005
    6,847
    This seems to be an area where it's best to be prepared with as many facts as possible. It sounds as is there are government policy documents that say what should happen, but local councils may interpret/implement them differently.

    The following links are worth looking at, and there are probably a lot more out there:

    http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/HealthAndWellBeing/HealthServices/CareHomes/DG_10031525

    The relevant section is about half way down the page and includes the following text:

    What if you want to move into a more expensive care home?

    You can choose a care home that is more expensive than your local council usually pays for a person with your assessed needs, but you may need to find a way to pay the difference.

    If the council can suggest a place that meets your needs and you still want to move into a more expensive care home then they can ask a third party (usually a relative or friend) to pay the extra. This is called a 'top-up fee'. You are not able to pay this yourself as you have been financially assessed to pay what you can afford.

    If your local council cannot suggest a place that meets your needs in your local area then they should be prepared to pay more than their usual amount


    Another good link:

    http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/retirement/article.html?in_article_id=419136&in_page_id=6

    As May has said, the Alzheimer's Helpline is probably an great place to get more info.

    Take care,

    Sandy
     
  11. Norman

    Norman Registered User

    Oct 9, 2003
    4,348
    Birmingham Hades
    Also in addition to a top up fee there may be a contribution towards the Home fee,depending on income
    Norman
     
  12. Margaret W

    Margaret W Registered User

    Apr 28, 2007
    3,725
    North Derbyshire
    Top up fees etc

    Hi, I am just trying to get to grips with this, and whilst I think my mum will get no help with her fees at all, cos she owns her own house, I have been looking at funding as well, and have to admit it seems to be a minefield of confusion.

    If someone on this website can give a general overview of how it all works, I think lots of people would be very grateful.

    Regards

    Margaret
     
  13. Tender Face

    Tender Face Account Closed

    Mar 14, 2006
    5,379
    NW England
    Hi Margaret - I'm totally confused too ... and while I'm hoping I'm a long way off having to organise these things for mum, feel I have to be aware.....

    Simplistcally, if mum has to pay NH fees and there was a top-up element required (i.e. fees in excess of her regular pension income) would I have the option to make 'top-up payments' (assuming I could afford them) rather than sell her home? Or do we always have to realise 'assets' before top-up fees come into play?

    I'm not so much concerned for what assets remain ... but admit the thought of selling what has been the family home for 40 years whilst my mother might have any inkling that we may have to do that fills me with dread .... maybe I'm worrying about something that may never happen ......:eek:

    Karen, x
     
  14. noelphobic

    noelphobic Registered User

    Feb 24, 2006
    3,452
    Liverpool
    A top-up fee is not the difference between the resident's income and the care/nursing home fee. It is the difference between what the local authority are prepared to pay - assuming that the resident is fully funded - and what the home charges. Ie the local authority may be prepared to pay £450 per week maximum but the home may charge £500 per week. The relatives are then expected to pay £50 per week or choose a cheaper home.

    If the resident owns their own home then they can either sell it to pay the fees or the local authority may agree to a deferred payment scheme. This means that the local authority will pay the home fees direct and a debt will accrue against the value of the house, to be paid off when it is eventually sold.
     
  15. jenniferpa

    jenniferpa Volunteer Moderator

    Jun 27, 2006
    39,418
    Karen, I think that there is some confusion regarding top-up fees when related to LA funding and just fees that are going to have to come out of someone's assets. My mother is self-funded and of course her £600 a week fees are by no means covered by her pensions. Now she has a fair amount of liquid savings (dropping fast of course) and the extra money is coming out of there, but from the nursing homes POV they don't care where that money is coming from, as long as it is coming. The disavantage of paying the difference from your own assets rather that the residents is that if it is likely that they will live long enough to deplete their assets you may never get LA funding, because you've been paying the money youself (so never spent down the relevant assets). On the other hand, with property prices continuing to rise, you still might be better off holding on to that appreciating asset for as long as possible.

    Edited to add:
    Ha, pipped by Brenda AND she put it better (mutter, mutter, mutter)
     
  16. Tender Face

    Tender Face Account Closed

    Mar 14, 2006
    5,379
    NW England
    Thanks Brenda ..... and Jennifer .... penny just hadn't dropped on this bit :eek: Think I'm starting to get the gist ......

    So as mum's EPA when and if that time comes, it would be for me to decide whether to use her savings and assets immediately for any top-up needed? ..... or try to preserve them .... for what? Karen mutters to herself .......... :(

    Thanks again, x
     
  17. Sandy

    Sandy Registered User

    Mar 23, 2005
    6,847
    Yes, this is the definition that I was working to. The issue really comes into play when say, using Jennifer's example, someone who has been self-funding at a cost of £600 per week drops to the minimum asset level and the LA (local authority) then is responsible for funding his/her care. Now it may be that the LA has arbitrarily :)eek: is this possible???) set the maximum amount that they are willing to fund at £400 per week - that leaves a shortfall of £200 per week.

    It seems that it is not an unusual practice (this is just based on reading other accounts on the Internet - not first hand experience) for LA to ask relatives to make up the difference in the form of a "top-up", as it is not legal to accept payment from the patient once their assets fall below the minimum.

    What is not entirely clear is what would happen if the top-up was not funded. I have read that the LA may propose to move the patient to another facility whose fees are within their range if it can be shown that the care at the new facility would be adequte for the person's needs. I have also read that such moves have been challenged as it would be too upsetting to the person with dementia and put their health at risk.

    If a person with dementia is not self-funding, this type of "negotiation" may take place during the process of agreeing on a suitable home. For example, the LA may have block-booked places in a home that makes visiting for family members very difficult, but a local home may charge more than the LA normally pays.

    That it why the line in the government guidance "If your local council cannot suggest a place that meets your needs in your local area then they should be prepared to pay more than their usual amount." is so important when dealing with LA representatives.

    Take care,

    Sandy
     
  18. Skye

    Skye Registered User

    Aug 29, 2006
    17,000
    SW Scotland
    Sandy, that's a very useful quote. Thank you.
     

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