Lasting Power of Attorney , banks and registration

[Paul C]

Hi,

This is my first thread so this may go a bit wrong, but I am learning, albeit slowly. I'm relieved to find the level of support amongst you.
A bit of history. I am the brother of Greenman who posted his first thread approx. two weeks ago. Although I am an experienced manager, I am in common with my brother, finding the whole process of how best to help my Mum very challenging as the illness progresses. Mum is 79and has what the specialist advises is middle stage Alzheimers. Unfortunately she does not recognise that she has this illness, merely that she is 'forgetful' and has to visit a memory clinic every three months! We also have to consider how to help our Aunt who moved in to support Mum in day to day living when Dad died in 2007.
We have joint Enduring Power of Attorney(EPA),drawn up and witnessed in late 2007 by a local solicitor at reasonable charge. I look after Mum's financial affairs on a day to day basis at her request as I live nearby. Although very 'forgetful' and sometimes having no idea of what day it is, she does know what accounts she has and understands what is happening in them if I sit down with her and show her the pages and write out in longhand what I have done. Unfortunately, she will often not remember any of this ten minutes later!
I have two questions:
1. I have recorded the EPA with Mums bank and insurance companies etc. and these companies have been fine when I have needed to contact them, make transactions etc., but I forgot to record the EPA with National Savings and Investments and they are now insisting on a letter from a GP or consultant to say that she is "able to understand basic financial transactions".
Is this usual or just peculiar to NS&I?
2. When, from experience do contributors think I should register this EPA with the Office of the Public Guardian? Is there anything else I should consider?

I have lots of other questions on support from Social Services etc. etc., but have to start somewhere, yours a worried newbie.....

 

[jenniferpa]

Paul - did you see the responses here? http://www.alzheimers.org.uk/talkingpoint/discuss/showthread.php?t=14044&page=3

 

[sue38]

Hi Paul and welcome to TP.

If you have LPA for your mum, you cannot use it until you have registered it with the OPG. This is different to the old Enduring Power of Attorney (EPA), which you only had to register when the donor was, or was becoming mentally incapable.

I am surprised (well, not THAT surprised ) that the banks and insurance companies would accept it, or that NSI would ask for medical confirmation that your mum is capable of understanding. It sounds as though they are applying the rules for an EPA.

 

[sue38]

This is the link to the OPG page on LPA

http://www.publicguardian.gov.uk/arrangements/lpa.htm

and this is the link to the EPA

http://www.publicguardian.gov.uk/arrangements/epa.htm

 

[jenniferpa]

Ah I see it is an EPA.

The general rule about registration is that an EPA should be registered when a person has lost capacity or as soon as they are starting to lose capacity. It does sound like you're at this point now.

NS & I are a law unto themselves, it seems from reports on the board. I still don't understand why they are asking for a letter indicating she has capacity though. Oh, maybe I do. An unregistered EPA can be used as a normal power of attorney. In that case they would probably require a letter indicating that the person had capacity to grant such a power of attorney. However if you registered it and then sent it to them it would be treated as coming under a different set of rules. I think if you want to deal with them, you'll have to register it.

 

[burfordthecat]

Hi Paul

Welcome to TP. I too have an "unregistered" EPA. I started using it because my dad at that time just did not want the stress of sorting out his own paper work. I have been able to use it to open/close accounts and to sign cheques on dad's behalf.

This Christmas, dad's confusion became so bad that I felt I needed to speak to my solicitor whether I needed to get the EPA registered at the Court of Protection. Official answer was if I as POA knew that dad had become incapable then I had a duty to register it. Unofficial answer was, if it is not preventing you from doing everything which you need to do with accounts etc, then why bother. My solicitors reasoning was, by registering it what will I achieve? Also an EPA can be revoked at any time until it is registered, so by mentioning to dad that I felt he had become mentally incapable (when he is in total denial) might just make him revoke it.

OK, so I have decided for the time being not to register, as it is not currently preventing me doing anything which I need to. I am happy with this situation because all immediate family are aware of what I am doing and I am also keeping detailed records on what is happening to the money.

Hope this helps.

Love Burfordthecat x x

 

[Chrissyan]

Interesting post Burford. I have never thought of using Dad's POA unregistered myself. I am in the middle of registering POA for my Dad through his solicitor. She has sent me a detailed letter, but did not mention that I needed to tell Dad. I have only learnt that from this site. I haven't yet done it.

I certainly did not know until I read your post just now that it could be revoked. I know your Dad does not yet have a diagnosis, mine does, so surely he would not be allowed to revoke it now if I told him I was going to register it?

To be honest I am not seriously worried, as I don't think he would be mentally capable of making the solicitors appointment & remembering why he made one in the first place if he actually got there.

Sorry Paul this is your thread. Welcome to T/P

I am not sure I know what is going on with the NS&I but

have lots of other questions on support from Social Services etc. etc., but have to start somewhere, yours a worried newbie.....

Fire away, there is always someone on here to help.

 

[jenniferpa]

Well yes they can be revoked. However, it's important to bear in mind that you normally notify the person and then send off the forms almost immediately. Then the question is: would the person be capable of finding the forms, filling them out, and then sending them off all on their own? I suspect not. If they could then clearly they still have capacity.

Many, but not all, EPAs can be used without registration. My mother's was written so that it couldn't be used without registration. So it varies.

 

[burfordthecat]

Interesting post Burford. I have never thought of using Dad's POA unregistered myself. I am in the middle of registering POA for my Dad through his solicitor. She has sent me a detailed letter, but did not mention that I needed to tell Dad. I have only learnt that from this site. I haven't yet done it.

I certainly did not know until I read your post just now that it could be revoked. I know your Dad does not yet have a diagnosis, mine does, so surely he would not be allowed to revoke it now if I told him I was going to register it?

Hi Chrissyan

I am sorry if my earlier post has caused you concern. I only found out about the "donor" being able to revoke the POA , whilst chatting to my solicitor. She basically said "off the record" that if dad was still able to revoke it, it would sensible not to try to get it registered until the disease had progressed to a stage where he would not be able to revoke it , due to lack of understanding.

I know this sounds really cruel, but at the end of the day, I am doing my best for dad whether he knows it or not and to have a POA revoked and then having to reapply through the courts would be hell.

IMHO I think that if you could use the EPA unregistered, then why not. My solicitor gave me numerous certified copies which I send out to who ever asks for it. So far I have not had any problems and no-one has objected because it is not registered.

Good luck in what ever you decide to do.

Love Burf x x

 

[Chrissyan]

Thanks Jennifer, I remember when I first joined I asked about POA (& revived an old thread ) I was just thinking ahead at that point, now I am there. I am still confused about the registered/unregistered side of it. It's a mine field, I don't think I will ever get my head around it. The good thing is, my Dad's solicitor is wonderful & very warm person & her Dad had dementia, I trust her & will let her guide me.

Burford: Perhaps it would have been better after all to start using my Dad's POA unregistered, a bit late now as the wheels are in motion, so will carry on.

Apologies once again to Paul, I am not trying to hijack your thread, honest. JUst hope some of this helps you too.

 

[jenniferpa]

I think also, in order to revoke it after you'd sent it for registration, the donor would have to fill out the objection to registration form. Filling that out wouldn't, I believe, actually revoke the EPA.

 

[Margaret W]

Paul, Register the POA now. NSI will accept it, I am sure. Forget any posts re LPAs, the are not relevant to you. Get several copies of the POA and send to all banks holding monies in mum's name. You should not have any problem.

If your mum dies, the POA ceases, and you may have to apply for probate, but let us hope that is some time off.

Margaret

 

[Sally]

This last post I concur with entirely. I have heard weird things about National Savings but hopefully they are exceptions rather than the rule and they will simply accept the PoA once registered.