Investing in Premium Bonds

[Norfolkgirl]

Does anyone have a view of how this would look to the authorities.

Mum already in care home since April 2010
She is self-funding
A £30,000 bankers draft (cheque) was raised from her account in Nov 2011 even though she had her own chequebook and no reason to need a banker's draft
Mum doesn't know where this money went or why
I have a feeling it might have been "invested" (by her fraudster abusers) for Premium Bond purposes as the maximum happens to be £30,000.
Would this come under scrutiny to anyone given that her care fees are £900 per week (but she does also get a reasonable pension and DLA benefit)

 

[jenniferpa]

I don't think it would be a problem. While I was never in the position to be scrutinized, my mother had £30000 in premium bonds and they actually produced a better rate of return than her regular ISAs. In other words, they aren't an inherently bad investment, particularly when interest rates are low.

 

[pippop1]

Is there much more than the £30,000? I would think that Premium Bonds should form a small proportion of your Mother's money. If she has £500,000 then that's OK. If she has say £100k left then £30,000 seems to large a proportion of her capital to potentially earn no interest (because maybe she won't win anything).

I am no expert though. Just applying common sense.

 

[Canadian Joanne]

I don't quite understand but are you saying someone else made off with the money? If yes, if I were you I would be a) pushing to get the money back in your mother's name and b) following up with the police to press criminal charges.

I fully understand this may be a family member but strongly feel that shouldn't be a deterrent. Crooks are crooks and should be held responsible for their actions.

 

[Cornishman]

Hi NG

As an investment, I believe Premium Bonds would be quite legitimate - average annual return is on a par with High Street savings accounts. I have even considered it in my mother's case (as POA), but discounted it because of the identity bureaucracy etc.

You don't say whether you believe the PB is in your mother's name (if indeed that's where the money went). If so, it'll certainly count as assets. If not, that's debatable, but I'm sure the LA would expect it to be declared whatever has happened if all this took place after it became apparent your mother would need care at some point in the future.

I stress this is my opinion and not in any way given as "advice".

Best regards

 

[nmintueo]

A £30,000 bankers draft (cheque) was raised from her account in Nov 2011 ...
Mum doesn't know where this money went or why

But doesn't the bank know who they made out the banker's draft to? They should also know whether the draft was ever presented.

A banker's draft is useful for larger purchases. It is secure because only the named payee can use the draft.
http://ask.barclays.co.uk/help/day2day_banking/bankersdraft​

If you want to find out whether she in fact has Premium Bonds in her name, contact NS&I -

Browse our frequently asked questions
Choose a subject: Premium bonds and prizes
http://www.nsandi.com/contact-us-helpful-information-frequently-asked-questions​

Do you mean there are known to have been fraudster abusers and you wonder if this is part of their activities, or you just don't know whether there has been any fraud?

Did your mother still have control of her banking at that time, over a year after going into a care home? If so, this could be something she did herself; if not, it looks inherently very suspect.

It might come under scrutiny if her money runs out and she is no longer self-funding.

 

[marionq]

The N S&I would not accept a cheque written in your mothers name but for the purchase of bonds in someone else's name. It looks to me as if someone specifically wanted a bankers draft to disguise the fact that the money was for their own bonds but from Mums account.

Speak to the bank, the N S & I and if necessary the police.

I have in the past written a cheque from our joint account but signed by me for bonds for my husband and that was not acceptable so they are fussy and will follow up your complaint.

 

[Norfolkgirl]

The N S&I would not accept a cheque written in your mothers name but for the purchase of bonds in someone else's name. It looks to me as if someone specifically wanted a bankers draft to disguise the fact that the money was for their own bonds but from Mums account.

Speak to the bank, the N S & I and if necessary the police.

I have in the past written a cheque from our joint account but signed by me for bonds for my husband and that was not acceptable so they are fussy and will follow up your complaint.

How interesting and thank you for the comments. It's rather complicated as I had no means to contact NS&I or the bank etc. because I was not officially able to access her affairs. It was only because I discovered I could still access her account (previously joint with her) that I found the £30,000 was a banker's draft. It has made me wonder whether premium bonds were bought but whether in mum's name or someone else's. It does seem curious that if it was for her, why would it have been a problem to have this disclosed i.e. from her own chequebook. The Police are not interested but I am going down another route, I just wanted the opinion of TP posters.

 

[Norfolkgirl]

Is there much more than the £30,000? I would think that Premium Bonds should form a small proportion of your Mother's money. If she has £500,000 then that's OK. If she has say £100k left then £30,000 seems to large a proportion of her capital to potentially earn no interest (because maybe she won't win anything).

I am no expert though. Just applying common sense.

The last I knew she sold her property for £95,000 but this was never credited to her account. She also had some savings less than £30,000 and that's it.

 

[Norfolkgirl]

I don't quite understand but are you saying someone else made off with the money? If yes, if I were you I would be a) pushing to get the money back in your mother's name and b) following up with the police to press criminal charges.

I fully understand this may be a family member but strongly feel that shouldn't be a deterrent. Crooks are crooks and should be held responsible for their actions.

Trouble is, because mum was very vulnerable and confused, she would have agreed to anything but not remember later. It is not known if the money was paid to someone else for their benefit or whether invested for mum. If it was the latter, then mum should be able to explain. Police not interested.

 

[Norfolkgirl]

But doesn't the bank know who they made out the banker's draft to? They should also know whether the draft was ever presented.

A banker's draft is useful for larger purchases. It is secure because only the named payee can use the draft.
http://ask.barclays.co.uk/help/day2day_banking/bankersdraft​

If you want to find out whether she in fact has Premium Bonds in her name, contact NS&I -

Browse our frequently asked questions
Choose a subject: Premium bonds and prizes
http://www.nsandi.com/contact-us-helpful-information-frequently-asked-questions​

Do you mean there are known to have been fraudster abusers and you wonder if this is part of their activities, or you just don't know whether there has been any fraud?

Did your mother still have control of her banking at that time, over a year after going into a care home? If so, this could be something she did herself; if not, it looks inherently very suspect.

It might come under scrutiny if her money runs out and she is no longer self-funding.

The banker's draft was presented (cashed) because I had unofficial access to her account (I was originally jointly account holder but removed myself on understanding that her "solicitor", her relation, was protecting her, this turned out to be futile) but luckily the account was still available on-line so I kept monitoring it. It was all done to make it seem mum could manage her affairs when the opposite was true. I already knew about the fraudster and solicitor at the time and already reported my suspicions to Police.

Mum did have sole control of her account but so confused and incapacitated would be impossible for her to contact bank or have idea how to spend £30,000 which didn't equate anywhere near her lifestyle!

 

[nmintueo]

Well, you sort of might be able to get information from NS&I ...

Our family has lots of different Premium Bonds – how can we find out which Bonds belong to which person?
Write to us, quoting each person’s name, address and holder’s number, and we’ll send Bond records to each person with a summary of their current Bond numbers.
http://www.nsandi.com/contact-us-he...-can-we-find-out-which-bonds-belong-which-per​

... except that asks for the holder's number, which presumably you don't have.

Does your mother have any capacity left? Can she sign a letter?

I can't find my NS&I number

For your security, we cannot provide this information by phone or email.

If you know your account or holder's number then call us. We may be able to post your NS&I number to you.

If you do not know your account number or holder's number then you’ll need to write to us stating your name and address. Please remember to sign your letter.
http://www.nsandi.com/contact-us-helpful-information-faqs-i-cant-find-my-nsi-number​

If you get a banker's draft, the money goes from your account right away; but you could then shred the draft and it would never be presented for payment; the bank would still have the money.

But if your mother couldn't contact the bank, obviously she couldn't get the banker's draft herself. Isn't that prima facie evidence of a sizable fraud, and why aren't the police interested? And if the money from the house sale just disappeared ...

If there's no attorney, is there anyone with official oversight of your mother's financial affairs?

 

[Norfolkgirl]

Well, you sort of might be able to get information from NS&I ...

Our family has lots of different Premium Bonds – how can we find out which Bonds belong to which person?
Write to us, quoting each person’s name, address and holder’s number, and we’ll send Bond records to each person with a summary of their current Bond numbers.
http://www.nsandi.com/contact-us-he...-can-we-find-out-which-bonds-belong-which-per​

... except that asks for the holder's number, which presumably you don't have.

Does your mother have any capacity left? Can she sign a letter?

I can't find my NS&I number

For your security, we cannot provide this information by phone or email.

If you know your account or holder's number then call us. We may be able to post your NS&I number to you.

If you do not know your account number or holder's number then you’ll need to write to us stating your name and address. Please remember to sign your letter.
http://www.nsandi.com/contact-us-helpful-information-faqs-i-cant-find-my-nsi-number​

Thanks, of course no idea if she holds bonds so therefore no holder number available. Too risky me getting her to sign any letter as the care home are watching me (they too are involved with the fraudster/solicitor). Like I said I am already in process of taking all of this further but in meantime just wanted opinions of TP posters, such as yours, which actually have been extremely useful (oh except the NS&I letter will go to mum! which would not be a good idea)

 

[Saffie]

I declared my husband's meagre amount of premium bonds for the LA financial assessment but I was later told by someone that these cannot be traced by the LA.
I wonder if it also difficult for anyone else to do so too.

 

[Norfolkgirl]

I declared my husband's meagre amount of premium bonds for the LA financial assessment but I was later told by someone that these cannot be traced by the LA.
I wonder if it also difficult for anyone else to do so too.

Thanks, that's a worrying thought and the fraudsters may have this argument in their favour. Couldn't anyone do that though? but wouldn't the LA be asking to see bank statements to check where monies have gone?

If it was any other amount that wasn't a round number and was more than £30,000 I would not have considered it likely to be premium bonds but it just happens to be the maximum and therefore a coincidence. It could possibly be that the money was transferred to a (hidden) new account for mum which I discovered at same time, and so it was disguised where the money had gone because I think they guessed I still had access on-line.

 

[Saffie]

but wouldn't the LA be asking to see bank statements to check where monies have gone?

In your mother's case, then yes, but is the LA ever going to be involved.
In my case, as I said, I added the few he had to my husband's assets anyway, but they were bought over 20 years ago so had no bearing on any bank statement.

 

[marionq]

There is of course a new maximum now which I think is £50000

 

[Cornishman]

There is of course a new maximum now which I think is £50000

The allowance for each person increases to £40k with effect from 1 June (ie in a couple of days' time), and the Government intends to increase this again to £50k sometime in FY2015/16.

 

[Norfolkgirl]

In your mother's case, then yes, but is the LA ever going to be involved.
In my case, as I said, I added the few he had to my husband's assets anyway, but they were bought over 20 years ago so had no bearing on any bank statement.

The LA probably not ever needed as the fraudsters I guess will make sure her funds remain at the minimum threshold and so therefore any funds above that will be free for them to use as they wish.

 

[Norfolkgirl]

The allowance for each person increases to £40k with effect from 1 June (ie in a couple of days' time), and the Government intends to increase this again to £50k sometime in FY2015/16.

Never knew this, thanks both Marionq and you for updating me.