how do you prevent losing your home due to costs of care homes

[Pete R]

Well, I just hope you are right Jennifer and Pete, although my solicitor was very clear on this. I was upset because I put a lot more money into the house than my OH did, and I would like to protect this for my children. Unfortunately when we bought this house it was just put in joint names, 50/50. If I had thought at the time the split could have been 70/30 or whatever but of course that's too late now.

Esmeralda, I am not doubting what you say regarding the change to tenants in common just the points about the charge and subsequent sale.

 

[esmeralda]

Esmeralda, this part of your reply is incorrect.

Also if you do decide to sell to buy something more suitable firstly your husband/whoever has PoA would have to agree to passing on all or a percentage of their share to you and then the LA would also have to agree.

I understand this bit Pete, it's just whether they can put a charge against his 50%, payable after I die. You and Jennifer both seem to think this can't happen. I would love to believe that is true as it would take a weight of worry off me but it wasn't what I was told so I am confused. Sorry to bang on about it.

 

[sleepless]

I am sure they couldn't do that if you die after your husband, Esmeralda.
Because the house is disregarded while you are still alive and living in it.
So your husband's care costs can't be covered by the house.
They can't wait around for you to die, then turn up for money!

Sorry, that last bit sounds trite, but in some cases the surviving spouse may live for thirty or more years after the death of the person who received care.

 

[Saffie]

I understand this bit Pete, it's just whether they can put a charge against his 50%, payable after I die. You and Jennifer both seem to think this can't happen. I would love to believe that is true as it would take a weight of worry off me but it wasn't what I was told so I am confused. Sorry to bang on about it.

Rest assured that Jennifer and Pete are absolutely correct in what they say.
Been there and done that!
If you remain in the house while your husband is alive it will be disregarded for all time.
If you decide to move whilst your husband is in care then half the proceeds of the
sale will belong to your OH and will be included in his capital.
LAs can use discretion and allow some of this to be used by you if you are unable to purchase a suitable home with the remaining half but there is no guarantee of this.

 

[Pete R]

I understand this bit Pete, it's just whether they can put a charge against his 50%, payable after I die. You and Jennifer both seem to think this can't happen. I would love to believe that is true as it would take a weight of worry off me but it wasn't what I was told so I am confused. Sorry to bang on about it.

I don't think you are banging on at all. Maybe I was misreading what you posted originally and thought you meant the charge was applied whilst you still lived there.

If you die then the LA cannot claw back anything it has already paid.

However after that I can see the LA wanting half of the value of the property to be added to your OH assets. Under the old rules of CRAG it was widely agreed that a 50% share of a property was probably worthless. Under The New care Act there is no real clarification if that understanding still exists. Only time and how cases are handled will tell.

My personal feelings is that the old understanding was flawed and allowed a way of avoiding CH fees. Under the New Act the LA and the new part owners would have to agree on a value of each share. If the other owner is actually living in it I think it would be fairly worthless to someone else but if they did not live there or later moved the argument would not hold up.

If no agreement is forthcoming an LA could apply to the courts for the property to be sold.

 

[Shedrech]

Thanks to Kevini and Jenniferpa
I only asked because one post mentioned partner and sometimes posters say OH neither of which has to mean they are married ie a spouse.
I was just curious to know if it made any difference in the funding of care. I wasn't sure how to explain what I meant.
Jenniferpa, you put it clearly. Thanks

 

[Pete R]

LAs can use discretion and allow some of this to be used by you if you are unable to purchase a suitable home with the remaining half but there is no guarantee of this.

Before the LA have that discretion the "OH" or whoever has PoA has to agree first. Don't know if it has ever gone that "sour" though.

 

[sleepless]

Now as to the "what is a partner" question from Shedrech - actually an unmarried partner who lives in the same property as the person going into care is normally treated the same as someone who is married.

I wonder then what would happen say if 'a Person' moved in a month before the financial assessment, but was not named on the deeds etc. yet tried to say it was their 'home' as they had moved in as the partner of the person needing care?

 

[Saffie]

Before the LA have that discretion the "OH" or whoever has PoA has to agree first. Don't know if it has ever gone that "sour" though

Yes, I guess so. I was only repeating what has been advised on here though.
Many people do hold the LPA for their OHs however but I can see that if someone else held it they might not approve, though if the LA could see the need and approve it for using the small amount from the other half , it would be hard to argue against it.
I would have found great difficulty in finding a property to buy with half this house's value.
Just as well I sayed put!

 

[Pete R]

Just as well I sayed put!

With having PoA I doubt you would have been so cruel to yourself not to allow it.

I just thought I would point it out as it is often assumed on here as a "Given".

The same rule applies to half of any private pension as well.

 

[jikkie]

So... what if my OH goes into care, his state pension and half private are lost, and then I cannot afford to stay in the joint home? If I sell up (with LPA), can I then buy something else, or is the liquidated money then counted as his savings?

I have prepared the paperwork to change to tenants in common, and a deed of trust for 75/25... based on my considerably higher contributions.

I live in Wales.

 

[Pete R]

I only asked because one post mentioned partner and sometimes posters say OH neither of which has to mean they are married ie a spouse.

Just to expand on what jenniferpa has already stated.....

In the New Care Act Statutory Guidance the property disregard applies to "the persons partner, former partner or civil partner". The term "partner" is defined in the statute as..... "has the same meaning as in the Income Support Regulations".

Those regs don't actually define partner but do define "a couple" as...
"(a) a man and woman who are married to each other and are members of the
same household;
(b) a man and woman who are not married to each other but are living together
as husband and wife;
(c) two people of the same sex who are civil partners of each other and are
members of the same household; or
(d) two people of the same sex who are not civil partners of each other but
are living together as if they were civil partners"

With regard to those "living over the brush" and claiming benefits there are questions to be answered and I would imagine those could be quite strict with regard to the property disregard. Also the LA also has more discretion with regard to the 50% of private pension and sale of the property to fund another.

 

[Pete R]

I wonder then what would happen say if 'a Person' moved in a month before the financial assessment, but was not named on the deeds etc. yet tried to say it was their 'home' as they had moved in as the partner of the person needing care?

If they moved in before the need to go into care was a possibility then it may be OK but if it was after the need was known then more than likely not.

 

[sleepless]

If they moved in before the need to go into care was a possibility then it may be OK but if it was after the need was known then more than likely not.

Could be a loophole for the unscrupulous, if questions weren't asked, or weren't answered honestly.

 

[Pete R]

Could be a loophole for the unscrupulous, if questions weren't asked, or weren't answered honestly.

I sincerely doubt it with the "Spanish Inquisition" my LA is undertaking with my application for a discretionary disregard

 

[esmeralda]

I am sure they couldn't do that if you die after your husband, Esmeralda.
Because the house is disregarded while you are still alive and living in it.
So your husband's care costs can't be covered by the house.
They can't wait around for you to die, then turn up for money!

Sorry, that last bit sounds trite, but in some cases the surviving spouse may live for thirty or more years after the death of the person who received care.

I didn't think it sounded trite sleepless -it made me laugh.

Many thanks to you, Saffie, Pete and Jennifer for your very helpful replies

 

[esmeralda]

I sincerely doubt it with the "Spanish Inquisition" my LA is undertaking with my application for a discretionary disregard

Sounds like you're having a difficult time Pete. Hope it all gets sorted out for you.
xxx

 

[Scarlett123]

So... what if my OH goes into care, his state pension and half private are lost, and then I cannot afford to stay in the joint home? If I sell up (with LPA), can I then buy something else, or is the liquidated money then counted as his savings?

I have prepared the paperwork to change to tenants in common, and a deed of trust for 75/25... based on my considerably higher contributions.

I live in Wales.

I studied CRAG in depth when John went into care, and part of the rules and regs, is that if that person was the higher contributor to the family income, then the spouse who isn't in care, shouldn't be left in a worse position.

Because of this, I managed to get John's Personal Allowance (pocket money) increased, so that in effect, I had less to pay. But, and it's a big but, it isn't law, it's up to the discretion of your LA, and they are all autonomous.

 

[dostbury2]

dostbury2

Yes, that's absolutely correct, it was the same with us. I'm not sure of the exact figures, but last year, as my husband needed to go into care, and he had less than about £14000 in savings, they took all of his State Pension, half of his private pension, and he lost his Attendance Allowance.

If the person going into care has between about £14000 and £24000 in savings, there's a sliding scale of how much extra you pay - over about £24000 means you are self funding. After John went into care, I changed my will, and left my half of the home, plus all my savings, to my children. That way, if I had predeceased John, the children would have had the value of half the home.

As there is nobody who wants to buy half a home, had I died first, the LA would have put a charge against the "half" that was still my husband's. I think it might be called a lien. Should your spouse go into care, and you are visited by someone from the finance department of the LA, you do not have to disclose any of your private information. Hope this helps.

Thanks Scarlet123 that really is very helpfull information. Going to sort out lasting power of attorney tomorrow, may get some more information. Thanks again dostbury.

 

[dostbury2]

dostbury2

Have you any further information you can give us about the situation. There are many ways of funding costs which do not mean losing your home also there are legal clauses which can stop your home from being sold out from under you, so we need to know if you are married, if your home is in joint names, do you have family living at home with you... without naming figures, can you give us a bit more detail please.

Hi cragmaid, we have been together for around 25years we are not married. both our names are on the property. Our kids have kids plus a great grandkid, they do not live with us, it's just the two of us. Hope this helps. Thanks dostbury.