Gifting - what is the ruling on this?

[T1000]

Hi all,
Mum was siagnosed early 2020 and has been deemed to have capacity with funds still as of around 1 year ago, and wants to gift birthday money etc to grandkids and sometimes grown kids for special occasions like birthdays and Christmas.

Is there a ruling on this I can follow for her? ie can she give 'what she would normally have given' or more if she decides to?
She took out cash last Christmas £200 each for 3 of her grandkids but didn't mention it until she was giving it to them.

So I am wonedrting about this Christmas as that is more than she would have given in the past. If she does it again, I want to be sure it's ok as technically I am her POA for finances but don't want to intervene if I don't need to.

Thanks

 

[nitram]

So I am wonedrting about this Christmas as that is more than she would have given in the past. If she does it again, I want to be sure it's ok as technically I am her POA for finances but don't want to intervene if I don't need to.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/giving-gifts-a-guide-for-deputies-and-attorneys .

 

[Bunpoots]

Hi @T1000

I think it depends on the amount of income/savings your mum has. I know my dad could get nasty if I suggested it wasn’t a good idea to give a lot of his money (in his case thousands of pounds) away so I understand why you don’t want to intervene.

I’m sure many people spend ridiculous amounts at Christmas and on birthdays whether or not they can afford it and, as your mum got the cash out by herself and is deemed to have capacity to deal with her own finances, I don’t see how you can easily stop her at the moment.

Does your mum understand the value of money or was she thinking that £200 was actually £20?

 

[Mumlikesflowers]

Dad, sis and I act as PoA for Mum re finances because she wouldn't have a clue. Sounds like your Mum is far from not having a clue. But are you actively registered with the bank for her? Then she knows that you can either step in with her consent whilst she still has capacity or you will be 'good to go' when she doesn't have capacity. And you won't in that moment have to get proof of her level of capacity, if it's all in place, you are 'good to go'.

 

[Jaded'n'faded]

In the end, it probably depends how much money your mum has. If she has squillions, you can happily give generous gifts on her behalf
(Though be aware there may be inheritance tax implications, which is completely different from deprivation of assets.)

However, as PoA, your job is to safeguard her money in her Best Interests and giving away large amounts to grandkids is probably not that. Mainly you have to consider whether she'd need that money if she moved into care. So, if, for example, she's only a few thousand above the threshold for funding (i.e. about £23,500) she shouldn't be giving it away. Because, come the day, social services will want that money.

Sp poportionate gifting is OK, disposing of large amounts that would otherwise go to pay for her care is not.

But does your mum need to know? If she says 'Give £200 each to the grandkids,' and you know that will leave her short, you could 'agree' but instead just give the GK £20 each or whatever. You'd have to explain to them and make sure they don't spill the beans but that may give you an acceptable way out.

It's all about how much dosh she has!

 

[T1000]

Hi @T1000

I think it depends on the amount of income/savings your mum has. I know my dad could get nasty if I suggested it wasn’t a good idea to give a lot of his money (in his case thousands of pounds) away so I understand why you don’t want to intervene.

I’m sure many people spend ridiculous amounts at Christmas and on birthdays whether or not they can afford it and, as your mum got the cash out by herself and is deemed to have capacity to deal with her own finances, I don’t see how you can easily stop her at the moment.

Does your mum understand the value of money or was she thinking that £200 was actually £20?

Thank you. I think her understanding is there but barely, as she is in a home and rarely needs cash. But she would know that £200 is much more than £20 for example. However she has never given such a large amount which is what I was worried about and I guess I don't want it coming back on me in a few years if they investgate such things. I have tried suggesting she goes to the cash machine less as she doesn't need cash any more which she agreed as uses the card more. But then still takes £200 a month on average and has no idea where it went. I guess separate to Christmas giftts underlying I am fearful a sibling who has financial issues may be asking for it when they visit which is why mum's memory 'clouds' when I ask what it was spent on.

 

[T1000]

Dad, sis and I act as PoA for Mum re finances because she wouldn't have a clue. Sounds like your Mum is far from not having a clue. But are you actively registered with the bank for her? Then she knows that you can either step in with her consent whilst she still has capacity or you will be 'good to go' when she doesn't have capacity. And you won't in that moment have to get proof of her level of capacity, if it's all in place, you are 'good to go'.

Yes I manage her banking app, limited ATM withdrawal to £100 which she agreed to, but in that instance she went around that by going in to ask for £600 or more in cash. The bank know we both have access to the account and I have not insisted on me being the only one that can make decisions.
On occasion also in shops she has been taken advantage of (salesy people) and she overrides the spend limit by telling them to split the transaction into 2 or more so that the limit doesn't apply.
Everything is in place but of course I am in a grey area where I don't know when to step in, and other members of the family have financial issues so not in their interests to let me know if she overspends or gifts too much.

 

[T1000]

In the end, it probably depends how much money your mum has. If she has squillions, you can happily give generous gifts on her behalf
(Though be aware there may be inheritance tax implications, which is completely different from deprivation of assets.)

However, as PoA, your job is to safeguard her money in her Best Interests and giving away large amounts to grandkids is probably not that. Mainly you have to consider whether she'd need that money if she moved into care. So, if, for example, she's only a few thousand above the threshold for funding (i.e. about £23,500) she shouldn't be giving it away. Because, come the day, social services will want that money.

Sp poportionate gifting is OK, disposing of large amounts that would otherwise go to pay for her care is not.

But does your mum need to know? If she says 'Give £200 each to the grandkids,' and you know that will leave her short, you could 'agree' but instead just give the GK £20 each or whatever. You'd have to explain to them and make sure they don't spill the beans but that may give you an acceptable way out.

It's all about how much dosh she has!

Hi yeah she is deciding and doing it herself for now, but last Christmas did not tell me so it was a surprise and I helped her in the moment split the cash and do it. Embarassingly she had done it for 4 grandkids when 6 were present, so it had to be done carefully.

She is in care and has been for a year, she has enough for around 4 years care yet but no not squillions sadly.

 

[wurrienot]

My understanding is that if someone can afford to give the money out of their normal income it's ok but if they're having to use savings,it's not a good idea.

 

[T1000]

@wurrienot she has no income aside from interest, and pensions, which alone are not enough for her care home fees. So her money overall is declining month on month.

She has enough for several years yet, and wants to treat on special occasions, so in my mind so long as amounts are not huge this is ok, but i wanted to check if there are any guide lines I can follow.