1. Cinder

    Cinder Registered User

    Dec 14, 2014
    66
    Some of you may know we were recently accused of financial abuse.
    That has been found to be without merit.
    However, a capacity assessment was done. The lawyer warned us it was borderline.
    If she is found to lack capacity, hubby and I will be in dire financial straits. We are pennies away from trouble each month. If we have to pay for MIL too, we are royally scr@w@d.
    I have two small children.
    I am very worried.
    Is there any facility for the C of P to pay living expenses / bills before decisions are reached / deputies appointed? I'm thinking incontinence products, food and bills.


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  2. dottyd

    dottyd Registered User

    Jan 22, 2011
    1,064
    n.e.
    Sorry to hear this Cinder but I'm not sure what you are asking.

    If it was found to be of no merit, why are you worried?

    If she fails a capacity test it doesn't mean to say that last year she didn't have capacity.

    I know you are feeling scared but can you say a bit more please.
     
  3. dottyd

    dottyd Registered User

    Jan 22, 2011
    1,064
    n.e.
    Re- read your thread and I think I know what you are asking.

    If she lacks mental capacity and you don't have POA then you apply to court of protection for guardianship.

    It takes a while and it is costly. I think my aunts was about £1200 but that gives you the power to use her money to pay care home bills and buy her essentials like clothing, toiletries, treats etc

    Does that help you?
     
  4. dottyd

    dottyd Registered User

    Jan 22, 2011
    1,064
    n.e.
    You should not have to pay for continence products.

    You will be assessed by a district nurse and then the nhs continence service will send a delivery to your door.
     
  5. sistermillicent

    sistermillicent Registered User

    Jan 30, 2009
    2,949
    Has someone told you that you can no longer have the monthly £300? If that is the case then I would say quite clearly to them that you cannot afford to have her live with you and she will have to go and live in a care home immediately.
    Look at care homes in the area and find out how much they would cost. Put that to them as a solution. Multiply what she pays you by ten and that will probably be the lower end of the care home costs.
    You can then take in a lodger if you are financially strapped. Not desirable, I know, but practical.

    The court of protection is an expensive way to go, I would not seek deputyship if the rest of the family are likely to put up a fight.

    Could you ask the solicitor who said you were in the clear about this?
     
  6. canary

    canary Registered User

    Feb 25, 2014
    10,786
    Female
    South coast
    I think understand exactly what your problem is. If there is no capacity then you would have to go for Court of Protection instead of Power of Attorney - which takes longer and until it is granted how will you pay the bills? Am I right?
    Im not sure that there is an easy answer to this, but one possibility is if your mum would be willing too make you a third party signatory on her bank accounts. I did this with mum and it was a life saver. Even though she had officially lost capacity and I couldnt go for PoA I waited until she had a "good" day and talked to her about finances. She said that she was concerned about them and I offered to do it for her. She agreed and we were up at her bank before you could say knife and she willingly signed all the forms. I think I was lucky and found a very small window of opportunity. It meant that I could pay bills until the CoP deputyship was granted.
     
  7. Lindy50

    Lindy50 Registered User

    Dec 11, 2013
    5,239
    Cotswolds
    Good idea Canary :)

    I do think this thread highlights how carers often suffer financially and how little attention is paid to this issue. Doesn't feel fair, I have to say :(

    All the best to you, cinder :)

    Lindy xx
     
  8. Fred Flintstone

    Fred Flintstone Registered User

    Aug 28, 2014
    133
    S. E. England
    #8 Fred Flintstone, Jun 7, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2015
    Reply to Original Post Part 1

    Cinder,

    I've had a look back through your past posts: there have only been 24 of them. I'm no lawyer, and I can only go by what you've said and the questions you've answered, but I can try to act as a detached observer.

    If your mother-in-law went into a care home, the costs would be upwards of £45,000 per year. The contribution she is making to your household of £300 pcm amounts to £3,600 per year and given she has the money, is a perfectly reasonable contribution to the house. I consider it to be a modest one by any standards, and it is just 8% (eight per cent) of the lower end of the range of care home fees.

    I repeat, I do not myself think it excessive in any way - indeed quite the opposite. You were not taking in a pauper, and your part of her family are making sacrifices for her.

    I'm interested as to who it was who instructed (and paid for) your MIL's solicitor to look into her financial arrangements with you. There are solicitors who act for different members of a family, but when there is a clear conflict of interest they have to take sides and stick with one party only - who in this case was presumably your mother. I suggest you contact him/her to confirm that.

    I suspect your mother's solicitor asked to see financial documents in order to allay fears expressed by other relatives, and from what you have said, was able to do so. It seems to me that your mother's solicitor was satisfied you were not taking advantage of her, reassured the rest of the family and that was that.

    I really don't think you are correct in describing it as an accusation of financial abuse.

    You seem like other people I know to associate the involvement of lawyers in what in this instance can only have been a civil matter with undertones of criminality. The interest of your mother's solicitor can only have been a civil matter. So please don't feel you have been criminalized in any way - quite the reverse!

    I'm wasn't clear to me from your earlier postings whether your MIL had granted you and your husband Lasting Powers of Attorney or not. From post #1 above it now appears that she did not. However, even if she had, the existence of the POAs would have been irrelevant for as long as your mother has legal capacity, even if that capacity were to be close to the margin.

    What is your MIL's money is hers to spend even if she should decide to spend it unwisely. Any Property and Financial Affairs LPA is not triggered unless and until she has been declared to lack capacity in a legal sense. Up until that point she can have - say - very expensive gambling and illegal drug habits and any LPA would be impotent.

    Your mother-in-law's money and property are hers until she is dead. Perhaps members of your husband's family need to take that fact to heart. Perhaps your MIL's solicitor even told them that.

    Fred
     
  9. Cinder

    Cinder Registered User

    Dec 14, 2014
    66
    Thank you all.
    Yes - the worry is that if theC of P is needed, MILs affairs will be frozen until a deputy is appointed. That means she cannot contribute to any bills / expenses while this process takes place? She is expensive to keep- in washing powder alone! - and we are worried that we will have to pay her way. I just wanted to know how people paid bills etc from accounts of people going through C of P process.
    We won't be applying for deputy ship ourselves given recent events. We will go with a neutral 3rd party.
    Obviously we hope she will be found to have capacity as then things would be a bit easier to sort....
    I didn't know we could get assistance with continence products??
    Is that means tested?


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  10. Cinder

    Cinder Registered User

    Dec 14, 2014
    66
    Fred-
    Thanks for your perspective. I hadn't considered it as a civil matter- we have just been so upset. I guess a lot hinges on this capacity assessment....
    Things aren't helped by angry & unhelpful family.
    :-(



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  11. Cinder

    Cinder Registered User

    Dec 14, 2014
    66
    Canary-
    Thanks for the advice. We will look into the 3rd party signatory.
    Unfortunately she has 4 bank accounts with different banks, 3 overseas, so it might get complex/ but if we could at least pay bills from one of them....




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  12. Fred Flintstone

    Fred Flintstone Registered User

    Aug 28, 2014
    133
    S. E. England
    Reply to Original Post Part 2

    Cinder,

    If you are struggling with financial problems, a reasonable way of helping to relieve them would be to make your children double up and to rent out the now spare room to a lodger.

    If access were denied to your mother-in-law's money during the lengthy process of obtaining Court of Protection deputyship (if that's the right phrase) then you would be justified in putting her into a one-way taxi towards the residence of any protesting relatives while you redecorate and advertise for a lodger, at whatever the local newspapers suggest is the going rate.

    People looking after aged parents inevitably start to have feelings of guilt. Perhaps it is time to provide the rest of your OH's family with practical experience of this.

    Fred
     
  13. Fred Flintstone

    Fred Flintstone Registered User

    Aug 28, 2014
    133
    S. E. England
    #13 Fred Flintstone, Jun 7, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2015
    Dear Cinder,

    Why the hell not? You have not been criminalized in any way at all. Just made to feel like it.


    If your MIL still has capacity, it is possible she can still make LPAs nominating your OH and yourself.

    Perhaps other members of his family will even agree agree to accept nomination as substitutes to take both of your places should you decide you can act no further for her and elect to resign, in which case all the responsibilities would become legally theirs.


    I think it is the District Nurses who do an assessment, and then if a need is found, you are supplied for three months at a time. They are not fancy Tena pants, though, they are absorbent pads worn inside unsexy mesh knickers.

    Mind you, in Bedrock, they might be considered quite fetching by some . . .


    Best wishes,
    Fred
     
  14. Cinder

    Cinder Registered User

    Dec 14, 2014
    66
    Thanks again, Fred.
    I'll look into contacting the district nurses.
    Our reasons for not going for the deputyship are to avoid any more accusations of any kind.
    I will discuss it again with hubby tho in the light of your advice.
    I appreciate your honesty and help.
    Thanks again.




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  15. LYN T

    LYN T Registered User

    Aug 30, 2012
    6,962
    Brixham Devon
    #15 LYN T, Jun 7, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2015
    Cinders forget Deputyship at the moment and try for Power of Attorney. You say capacity was shown to be borderline so download the forms fill them out (as far as you can) wait for a good day and talk to your Mum. Your Mum will only have to be aware of what she was signing at that time -even if she can't remember 5 minutes later. You will need a witness who knows your Mum to sit in. The bar is set low.This can be a friend/GP/CPN. You do not need a solicitor to do this.

    If you are still worried about further accusations just frequently print out your Mum's bank statement and highlight any expenditure (write a note to explain what the money was used for) keep all receipts in a box. Then you have proof of being above board.

    Download the forms today-get going;):)

    Love

    Lyn T

    P s forgot to say my late OH was already low severe before I applied. I thought he was having a relatively good day and phoned a friend who had known him for decades. She spoke to Pete-he understood and signed.
     
  16. canary

    canary Registered User

    Feb 25, 2014
    10,786
    Female
    South coast
    Hi cinder - Id just like to mention that bank accounts are not frozen while you are applying for PoA/CoP. In my case the problem was that mum became incapable of sorting her finances out (paying bills etc), but if your mum is still able to that is one thing you dont have to worry about.
    I take it that you are concerned about whether your mum has capacity as if she doesnt then you feel that you will be accused of taking advantage of her. Please be re-assured, if her capacity is, at the moment, border-line, then I strongly suspect that a year ago it would have been fine.
    I also agree with Fred, you have done nothing wrong.
     
  17. susy

    susy Registered User

    Jul 29, 2013
    801
    North East
    I don't know who has accused who of what but being totally honest with you, after reading all of this you are doing an amazing job and there seems to be a money grabbing idiot as another relative of your mil who has accused you of ripping her off.
    Is that about right?
    I would be saying ok fine, you take her then and do it all for free. But actually, like you I couldn't actually do that. So in the mean time, keep receipts for everything that you use for mil including the increased fuel/ food/ cleaning products.
    I wouldn't expect to stay long term at my children's homes for free so especially with extra expense that dementia brings then I would be happy to pay my fair share, with a little extra for all the inconvenience having me there would cause. (£300 PCM wouldn't come close!)
     
  18. Cinder

    Cinder Registered User

    Dec 14, 2014
    66
    Thank you all again for your support.
    I already feel much better from reading your helpful and honest comments.
    I guess we just have to wait & see what comes of the capacity assessment.
    Either way, even with further reflection, hubby & I don't want to be deputies or take up PoA for MIL. The "money-grabbing" relative is likely to pressurise us for her money & make further malicious allegations. As MIL is wealthy, she can afford for an independent party to take on this role, and it would put us above reproach.
    We just have to hope she can authorise bill payments etc- as we are far from wealthy and she is not cheap to look after.
    So sad how it all boils down to money.
    I truly hope I end up a loved pauper instead of wealthy and used as a cash cow.





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  19. Fred Flintstone

    Fred Flintstone Registered User

    Aug 28, 2014
    133
    S. E. England
    #19 Fred Flintstone, Jun 8, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2015
    deleted
     

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