Exploitation of the elderly and the family

Discussion in 'Legal and financial issues' started by monsmeg, Jun 10, 2019.

  1. Quizbunny

    Quizbunny Registered User

    Nov 20, 2011
    81
    I couldn't agree more Lawson.

    If 'Those who have' don't subsidise 'Those who dont' the result would be a 2 tiered system where the poorer members of society would be effectively in the Work House.
     
  2. monsmeg

    monsmeg New member

    Dec 14, 2017
    3
    The care in Scotland works through the local council. Only if you stay at home you will get a very limited care package. My mother had this in the beginning when she was with early Alzheimers Disease. She had 3 visits all lasting not more than half an hour or so. When my mum could not be left alone we employed an agency at around £16 an hour for her care at home. So the word ' free' is very dubious.
    Scotland does not get subsidised for this budget, it is taken from something else in the Scottish budget. England and Wales are getting treated the way they vote for councillors in their local councils. I think social care is a devolved matter in Scotland, but home care and the prices seem to be totally unfair.
     
  3. canary

    canary Registered User

    Feb 25, 2014
    9,623
    Female
    South coast
    In England if you have less than £14,000 saving the Local Authority will pay for carers to come into the home, but only for about the same time as you. If your savings are above £14,00 you will have to pay towards this care and if your savings are above £25,000 you will have to pay all of it. There simply isnt enough money to pay for unlimited free care, so it has to be rationed.

    I dont think any of us like this, but its the way it is. I think the amounts of money that have to spent on care came as a shock to most of us.
     
  4. monsmeg

    monsmeg New member

    Dec 14, 2017
    3
    I am not talking about inheritance money. It is a right for the NHS to pay for care. Free at the point of delivery, remember. My mothers wished to save, that's her right..but for her to be exploited when she is ill, puts many families WHO ARE NOT WELL OFF into financial hardship
    NHS care was suppossed to cover this with taxes and National Insurance contributions ..you know what, rob her of her money she worked for and give back the N.I. contributions.
    Many families have gone into hardship and deprivation because they are not well off. And as you've guessed I'm one of them. I did not get hand outs, but some of the family did long before this unfair tax, and have benefited, some of us unfortunatley did not and my mother should be able to do what she wants with HER money, that she worked hard for.
     
  5. marionq

    marionq Registered User

    Apr 24, 2013
    5,646
    Female
    Scotland
    #25 marionq, Jun 14, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2019
    In Scotland permanent care is the same as in England. You pay out of pensions and savings and then the sale of your house if no one eligible is living in it. The main difference is that personal care such as washing and dressing in your own home is free for those in need and referred by their GP. My husband gets help three days a week.

    It is a myth that care homes in Scotland are free. English taxpayers do not subsidise us.

    Just thought I would add that John is going into care for a week in July and I will pay £1103. Our LA provide subsidised respite for those who need it for two weeks a year at approx £138 a week.
     
  6. canary

    canary Registered User

    Feb 25, 2014
    9,623
    Female
    South coast
    The trouble is that most of the care required by people with dementia is considered to be social care, not health care.
    It isnt just dementia, either - people with Parkinsons, Traumatic Brain Injury, Motor Neuron Disease, Multiple Sclerosis and even cancer are all required to pay for things that are not considered health care.

    I doubt that it will change as the costs involved would be so enormous that no government would even consider it.
     
  7. nitram

    nitram Registered User

    Apr 6, 2011
    18,555
    Male
    North Manchester
  8. la lucia

    la lucia Registered User

    Jul 3, 2011
    591
    Oh, my personal view, (which I tried to avoid expressing), is for increased taxes, particularly at the top end and for a combined NHS /social care system to be free. Pooled risks are always cheaper. I believe everyone should have access to the same things when i comes to health and social care.

    It's not difficult because apart from anything else the levels of tax avoidance and offshoring are both extreme and catastrophic.

    But I definitely don't consider 'giving back' to my country means giving to corporate profits. Or hedge fund managers. And if we don't pay attention to what's happening to the NHS it's going the same way.

    (If you are interested see the critiques of the NHS long term plan Integrated Care - the rebranding of what was initially called Accountable Care - it's modelled on the American system and it will put contracts out for sale to private companies to administer entire regions).
     
  9. la lucia

    la lucia Registered User

    Jul 3, 2011
    591
    But local authorities have had millions cut from their budgets. They're being held up as responsible for something that is out of their control.

    Central funding by the state for social care, just like the NHS, has been repeatedly cut for years.
     
  10. Sirena

    Sirena Registered User

    Feb 27, 2018
    1,326
    Female
    Oh yes, I realise that - they have very limited choice, funding flows (or not) from central government. But the result is that some care homes cannot now accept LA clients even if they'd like to - and that is likely to be the case for some time to come. And it is a huge concern for anyone who is likely to need LA funded care.
     
  11. Jaded'n'faded

    Jaded'n'faded Registered User

    Jan 23, 2019
    285
    Female
    High Peak
    You can add my vote to that. That's exactly how it should work but unfortunately it's far from that now.

    My mum paid tax/NI all her working life. She continues to pay tax on her income/investments now and that's how it should be. The only part I object to is that she is also subsidising LA residents in her CH as she pays £200 a week more than the LA do. That's Just Not Fair.

    The current system sucks.
     
  12. Canadian Joanne

    Canadian Joanne Volunteer Moderator

    Apr 8, 2005
    16,012
    Toronto, Canada
    Looking at this from Canada, Ontario specifically, I do feel that the costs of what we call long term care is outrageous in the UK. I have heard of costs of £800 to £1000 per week which is mind-boggling. How anyone can pay that, I have no idea.

    I think our system in Ontario is more equitable. The current costs for a nursing home are approximately £1,080 per MONTH for a shared room (usually 4 residents in a room but that's only in older homes) , £1,320 in a semi-private (2 people) and £1545 for a private room - that's all nursing homes in the province. Every person pays the same amount, regardless of their income or savings or investments. The only qualification is not financial but medical - does the person require the care? If a person's income is limited, they would get a place in a basic room. There is a formula in place, which takes into consideration pensions etc and shortfalls are made up by the provincial government. No one is left behind because they are poor.

    There are retirement homes here, which can be very luxurious and cost £3000+ a month. But the care is not better.

    So we don't have the unfairness of a two-tier system. We do have people who receive a subsidy but their room costs the same. And yes, the subsidy is funded by our taxes. I do not have a problem paying a little more tax so that an elderly poor person can get decent care when they need it.
     
  13. RosettaT

    RosettaT Registered User

    Sep 9, 2018
    152
    Female
    Mid Lincs
    Goodness me, I enquired about live in care for a week from my OHs care company as I was thinking of a few days away and was quoted £1,500, + the cost of an additional carer for 2 hrs a day (it takes 2 to hoist him In/out of bed) + food and an additonal £158 per night if the carer is woken more than twice, tho' that wouldn't be the case in this instant...

    ....all before I pay for a few days away :eek:
     
  14. Canadian Joanne

    Canadian Joanne Volunteer Moderator

    Apr 8, 2005
    16,012
    Toronto, Canada
    @RosettaT that is completely ridiculous. How do people manage??
     
  15. la lucia

    la lucia Registered User

    Jul 3, 2011
    591
    It's extraordinary isn't it? And the terrible thing is it's a postcode lottery for what is and isn't available. The variations are huge and having lots of money or not is sometimes irrelevant.

    I couldn't get any respite space for my mum for several years no matter how much we were prepared to pay because our NHS commissioning team snap up spare care home beds to keep their discharge figures down. So I just had to adjust to not having any time off for several years. Dire for my career to say the least. But a colleague in London gets both short and longer respite care for his wife and goes to occasional conferences in his field.

    @Canadian Joanne thank you for your post detailing the Canadian situation - it's really interesting looking at other countries.
     
  16. la lucia

    la lucia Registered User

    Jul 3, 2011
    591
    Gulp.... that's just beyond ludicrous isn't it? I don't think people in this country realise how far off a rational track it's all gone.
     
  17. canary

    canary Registered User

    Feb 25, 2014
    9,623
    Female
    South coast
    Live in-care is notoriously expensive @RosettaT and normally respite is taken in a care home, but I can see that you would have trouble getting your mum there.
     
  18. nitram

    nitram Registered User

    Apr 6, 2011
    18,555
    Male
    North Manchester
    It can be misleading comparing different countries on a single aspect
    • Is finance from care separate from finance for medication?
    • What about surgical procedures?
    • What % of lifetime income is ringfenced for care (medical or social)?
     
  19. la lucia

    la lucia Registered User

    Jul 3, 2011
    591
    I'm aware of this (I was a social scientist before my current job).... and as this is related to my work, I've spent a lot of time pouring over the figures and the trade media. The UK, and specifically England is paying through the nose. And don't get me started on our totally ridiculous, and largely invisible to the public, supply chains. :)
     
  20. Lawson58

    Lawson58 Registered User

    And I agree that giving back to my country (and my community and its members) doesn't mean giving back to corporations or enabling filthy rich people to avoid paying taxes. But it's not the principle that's wrong, it's the system that's wrecked and governments who aren't brave enough to confront the issues.

    My pension is means tested which means that because we own our home and have some savings, I cannot receive a full pension. So we use our savings for some of the things we need and to help pay the bills. I have worked hard all my life and anything I have is a result of my own efforts.

    However, my husband does not receive a pension at all because he has not held his permanent residency visa for 10 years but in all that time he has received excellent medical ( and at times intensive emergency) care through our system even though he has never worked in this country and never paid a cent in taxes. That's all the taxes I have paid in the past doing its good work.

    How could I possibly say that I shouldn't give something back?
     

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