do I have to now register an enduring power of attorney

[Flooz]

I've held an enduring power of attorney on behalf of my Mum for several years - mainly because she lived in France for a while, and I needed to deal with her affairs over here.

Now she's been diagnosed with a form of Dementia, I'm not sure if I need to have the POA registered, and if I do, how I go about it.

Does anyone out there know?

Many thanks for your help.

 

[Vonny]

Hi Flooz,

If you feel your mum is becoming unable to manage her own affairs, then you need to register the EPA with the OPG, link to their website here

http://www.publicguardian.gov.uk/arrangements/epa.htm

This contains a link on how to register the EPA.

It may not be necessary to register the EPA immediately, only you can tell whether or not the time has come. My dad has appointed my sister and I attorneys but it's had to be done under the new Lasting Power or Attorney. That is now registered so either dad, my sister or I can deal with his affairs. Although new PAs have to be LPAs rather than EPAs, existing EPAs are still accepted.

Vonny xx

 

[jenniferpa]

If you have reason to believe that someone is mentally impaired you do have a duty to register the EPA. Mind you, just because someone has been diagnosed doesn't necessarily mean the time has come.

 

[Flooz]

Thank you for your replies. Mum definitely isn't capable of managing her affairs, i've been doing it for some time anyway. My Dad used to take care of everything, and when he died Mum struggled to understand anything. Although she did learn, she now has little comprehension of day to day stuff. I have to give her some money each day - I can't give her a weekly amount, because it 'disappears' in a day or two and she has no recollection of what she's done with it. She doesn't buy any food when she shops, just a newspaper and biscuits or cakes. As far as paying bills, she panics whenever one is delivered.

I've been reading on POA's and registering them, but as she doesn't have any property to be dealt with, just a few quid in savings, I wasn't sure if it was still necessary to have the EPOA registered. I've just read that it costs £400 to have it registered too. I don't have that kind of money!

 

[Sandy]

Hi Flooz,

I've just read that it costs £400 to have it registered too. I don't have that kind of money!

According to the website of the Office of the Public Guardian, the fee to register an EPA is £120. That fee can be reduced or waived all together if depending on your mum's financial status.

http://www.publicguardian.gov.uk/about/fees.htm

You could also ring their Helpline on 0845 330 2900 for more information.

Take care,

 

[myheadisinaspin]

our POA is registered withOPG and is already fro us to take over when time comes mum cant do it, so yes you can register it even though you not taken control yet, and yes its 120 to register, there are two health and wealth

 

[Cl13]

Hi Flooz, mum and I registered LPA, we went to the solicitors in March, it took a total of 3 months for it to come through.
We were charged £150.00 to register it for finance affairs only mum didn't think personal affairs was necessary I did but there you go, we then paid solicitors bill of £460.00
I think you should do it now, my mums solicitor told us in uncertain terms that as long as mum was deemed medically to make her own decisions, she should do so, when mum could no longer sign her cheque she asked me to take over.

Love Lynn

 

[September Girl]

I have just registered an EPA for my Mother which we set up 11 years ago after my father died. Mum was only actually diagnosed with vascular dementia in April but it was already clear to me that she was incapable of looking after her own affairs. I finally decided to register the EPA when on two occasions, I was prevented from helping her because I did not have Power of Attorney. For example, I wanted to switch her house insurance but couldn't cancel the outrageously expensive existing policy!

Registering the EPA is very simple and costs £120 if you do it yourself. Have courage - it is not difficult. All the forms are on the OPG website that others have mentioned. There is a stash of information on there.

You have to formally notify the donor and their three (minimum) closest relatives that you intend to register the EPA. There are strict definitions as to who these are. You complete a simple form for each person that you can download and either fill in by hand or on the computer. Once you have notified them (I phoned my 3 relatives and then sent the form in the post) they have 5 weeks to object but ONLY on 5 or 6 very definite grounds (they cannot just say they object out of spite for example!). As soon as you have done the notifications you complete another more lengthy form which you send off with the EPA and a cheque to the OPG. Then you wait. They notified me after a fortnight to say that they'd approved my "package" and giving me a date when assuming no objections were raised, the EPA would be registered. I then got it back in the post within a week of that date.

The original EPA had been lodged with Mum's solicitor so I took the registered EPA back to him for safe keeping and he gave me 6 certified copies (charged £15) to send off as required. I am in the process of doing so at the moment.

So there we go. I think it will make life for me much more straightforward and Mum is SO relieved. We are very close and I make certain that when she does indicate that she wants to do something financially that I listen very carefully. For example her great grandson started school the other day and Mum wanted to contribute to the cost of his uniform. It's the first time in months that Mum has actually expressed a wish like that - I was totally dumbstruck actually! But maybe she has had these ideas before but didn't know how to go about it herself. Now she knows that I can make it so!

By the way, this is my first post but I have had so much help from TP members over the last few months that I'm just glad I have recent experience that might help others now.

 

[Nebiroth]

When to register an EPA is largely left up to the judgement of the named attorney(s). You should register when you feel the donor is no longer capable of managing their own affairs - in fact, you have a legal obligation to do so: it is one of the duties of an attorney.

A diagnosis of dementia doesn;t automatically mean you have to register - because people can and do continue to manage their affairs for years.

But from what you say, you should now register the EPA.

You are legally bound to send notice to your mum that you are registering the EPA (although, it is possible to obtain a dispensation from the Court if doing this would cause "distress" - you'd need confirmation of this from say a doctor); however, it doesn;t matter if your mum doesn;t bother to read the letter or doesn;t understand it.

Yes, you do have to send notice to relatives: three of the prescribed type. That can be more than three people, because you have to send to every relative in a category (for example, if you notify a nephew, you have to notify ALL of them). This is because they have the right to lodge an objection.

It should cost no more than £120. This is normally taken from thr assets of the donor. It can be waived under certain conditions.

 

[Flooz]

Thank you everyone. There is no doubt in my mind that Mum isn't capable of dealing with her affairs, I've been doing it for years anyway - but that was her choice. These days, she wouldn't have a clue.

There's no property involved, it's just her day to day affairs that I deal with, giving her money, paying her bills etc. I'm a signatory on her bank account anyway, so the POA doesn't make a huge difference to me.

At the moment, I think the one thing that is bothering me is if I have to power to decide Mum needs to be in a home. That may sound hard, but there is only so much I can do. I've set a cut off point in my mind of when I will have to make that decision, and it's when (not if, as I'm seeing signs that it will go that way) mum becomes physically violent towards me.

Getting Mum into a home is going to prove very difficult as she isn't aware she's suffering from dementia, just knows she has a bad memory. She is also under the delusion that she can cope....

 

[Nebiroth]

Enduring Power of Attorney does not confer the ability to decide that someone should be placed in a care home.

EPA's deal with financial aspect, and nothing else.

This is one reason why the new Lasting Power of Attorney was created so that people could plan ahead by stating what their wishes would be should certain circumstances occur in the future, and also be able to appoint someone to act on their behalf with the ability to make some decisions, should they lose the capacity.

 

[Willowgill]

Speaking from experience I would say to register it as soon as you can. We had POA for both my parents and registered both early last year at a cost of £120 each. Not long after I realised dad was totally incapable of looking after their affairs and Mum had never had anything to do with finances so it was down to me. By the end of the year they'd both been diagnosed with Alzheimers and it has been up to me to look after everything ever since. Even simple things like speaking to the utilities people for gas/electric charges require they see a copy of the registered certificates - banks obviously do too.

As main carer I was the one who had to find the care home for Mum and agree to her going in a couple of months ago but I certainly wasn't the one who made the decision she needed 24 hour care - the hospital and social workers did that.

 

[Flooz]

I'm not ashamed to admit, i'm finding this whole process confusing - and I spent several years working in the legal profession!

It seems to me, that I may be better off getting a LPA, I'm sure Mum would sign in, once i'd explained, BUT could it not be deemed void if anyone decided that Mum didn't understand what she was signing? I mean, if she isn't fit to deal with her affairs, then it could be argued that she's not fit to sign an LPA?

As I mentioned earlier, there's no property to deal with, it's just her day to day affairs. I've not had any problem with utilities etc yet, what i've always managed to do so far is have mum with me who simply tells them they have authority to talk to me.

Mum's Dr (who is also my Dr) seems to think that I need to think about a care home for mum, not just for her sake, but also because as I am disabled myself, what I can do for Mum is limited.

So, I guess what I also need to know is, ultimately, WHO makes the decision on where Mum lives? And what happens if she doesn't agree?

 

[Vonny]

Hi Flooz,

I think a lot of it is down to individual LAs and agencies. We had a huge say in where mum lived and the care plan but as I've stated in previous posts, I know we were exceptionally lucky in our SW, in fact in all parties involved. I had to do a bit of fast talking but it wasn't the battle I anticipated. If your mum is still capable of making her wishes known, I'm not sure she can be moved into a CH under duress.

Getting an LPA would obviouly costs more. There are 2 LPAs, financial (a la old EPA) and welfare. To do the two it costs twice the price. However since you have the EPA you'd only have to do the welfare LPA if that's what you decide to do.

Our solicitor said that if mum could indicate even verbally that she accepted a POA, it would be ok. I'm not sure if that is strictly the case but that's what we were told

Vx

 

[jenniferpa]

Getting an LPA drawn up is not quite so straightforward as the EPA was. You now need to have a "professional" (often a doctor or a solicitor) attest that the person understands what they are signing. Would her doctor do that?

If you don't have a welfare LPA then the next option is to have a best interests meeting that will endeavor to find out your mother wishes and judge her capacity to decide for herself. I suspect from what you say, that while she may not have sufficient capacity to put into place an LPA, she may be sufficiently capable to make a decision about where she want to live, even if her reasoning is faulty.

 

[Nebiroth]

It seems to me, that I may be better off getting a LPA, I'm sure Mum would sign in, once i'd explained, BUT could it not be deemed void if anyone decided that Mum didn't understand what she was signing? I mean, if she isn't fit to deal with her affairs, then it could be argued that she's not fit to sign an LPA?

If she has been deemed to have lost capacity then she can't create an LPA. It would almost certainly be deemed invalid.

As I mentioned earlier, there's no property to deal with, it's just her day to day affairs. I've not had any problem with utilities etc yet, what i've always managed to do so far is have mum with me who simply tells them they have authority to talk to me.

That's right. However, if you have power of attorney from a registered EPA, then this is the paper equivalent of mum telling them you are acting on her authority. Most utility companies will do what you say, but financial institutions won't. The EPA will allow you to act with full authority in almost any purely financial situation.

Mum's Dr (who is also my Dr) seems to think that I need to think about a care home for mum, not just for her sake, but also because as I am disabled myself, what I can do for Mum is limited.

So, I guess what I also need to know is, ultimately, WHO makes the decision on where Mum lives? And what happens if she doesn't agree?

Personally, I would get social services involved and possibly get your GP to pass his recommendation to them.

Essentially, whether to place you mum in a care home is a joint decision between her doctors, social services, and yourself.

I don't think you can actually make the decision, but you can initiate the process by suggesting it, or by raising what I call the "red flag" with social services by insisting that you can't cope and can't meet your mum's needs. This is what they call a "breakdown in care", they are obliged to act since social services have a legal obligation to ensure that no vulnerable person is placed at risk.

When residential care is considered, then it is normally either social services and/or the medical profession who are the final arbiter with either the active agreement of the main carer or, at the least, the lack of active opposition from the main carer.

If your mum needs residential care for her own health and safety (or that of others) but refuses, then you'd be looking at either a section under the mental health act or a similar order under the mental capacity act. Both of these are a last resort and are used when there is an actual, tangible risk.

If your mum retains the capacity to state her opposition to residential care, then it becomes difficult to do so against her wishes unless there is a substantial and immediate risk to her health and safety (or someone else's).

 

[Flooz]

Thanks everyone for your replies. I know in my mind what I need to do both now and in the future.

I see that there's no point in trying for an LPA because mum wouldn't understand what she'd be agreeing to. Social Services are already involved and we get a visit every 10 days or so. The frustrating thing is Mum's on her best behaviour when they're about. I don't think Mum's ready for a care home yet, we get by, just about. She's physically capable of fending for herself, it's just that she doesn't, although at the moment it's mainly silly things. She won't eat properly, if she had her way, she'd live on cakes and biscuits. I see her daily, and most of the time prepare and cook her main meal. I've given up trying to get her to eat fruit, it just sits in the fruit bowl looking sad. Part of me is of the opinion, it doesn't matter what she eats, as long as she eats something - but then I have to listen to the graphic details of her constipation, although she takes laxatives as if they're going out of fashion. I don't know how I can deal with that. Mum's very secretive about stuff, and I only find out by accident things like this.

Mum's not aware that she has dementia, which can also make things more difficult. At the moment, I'm not sure whether to tell her (on a day when she's capable of listening) or not. That's something I will have to discuss with my brothers too. Although I'm not convinced she'd believe me if I did tell her.

I've just spent a couple of hours with her, watching her stare into space, and sigh every time I tried to speak to her, getting monosylabic answers, and stares at me as if she's saying "who do you think you are prying into my life". It's so difficult not to react.

I shall be speaking to the COP about registering the EPA, although as I'm a signatory on her bank account, I don't think it will make any difference, but it's best to have these things done properly.

 

[Nebiroth]

Any social worker or doctor with any experience with dementia will be aware of how patients with it can present better some days than others, and particularly, how they can be on "best behavior" or make "best effort" with strangers.

It will be helpful if you keep a diary, noting down all instances of problems and behaviors. This helps establish a more accurate picture of mum's actual condition and her care needs. Don't try to do it from memory.

You are correct, it is more important to worry about mum actually eating, rather than what she eats. Generally the advice from a dietician would be "calories!". Obviously a balanced diet is healthier in the long run, but the risk of people starving themselves is much greater. Dementia patients cannot be reasoned with, and will stop eating if they aren't offered what they want to eat. A taste for sweet things is very common.

Mum may be convinced that she is constipated because she can't remember trips to the toilet. Other than this it may be possible to sneak things like fruit cake and wholemeal biscuits into her - at least there is some fruit and fibre in those.

If she is taking laxatives, then she is unlikely to do any real harm but it might be possible to substitute them with a placebo; TicTac Mints come in a variety of colours and are convincingly pill-shaped as well!

As to telling her she has dementia: is there any point? Would she understand the implications? Would she remember? Would she believe you?

Many, if not most, people with dementia are quite convinced there is nothing wrong with them and will explain away the odd stuff any way they can.

At worst, she might even believe that you are telling her lies, and are in a conspiracy against her.

 

[JamesT]

Our solicitor recommended Mum did not make an LPA for Health

Mum made an EPA about 20 years ago.

She was diagnosed with AD 3 years ago. We saw a solicitor soon afterwards (who said it wasn't necessary to register it at that time, and is still not registered). The solicitor mentioned that the law was about to change, but that the EPA would be fine.

I learned recently that the EPA is fine for financial matters, but not health/care decisions.

I phoned the solicitor recently, who said she had deliberately not suggested making a Health LPA - as a matter of principle she didn't think it was a good idea for a person to hand over that amount of control to another person. She thinks that as next of kin, doctors would involve me in key decisions anyway.

Do people agree with that view?

 

[jenniferpa]

No I don't. Frankly I have to say that for a solicitor to impose their own personal views on their clients is akin to malpractice. One thing to offer the option but advise against it, another thing entirely to keep the option under wraps because she doesn't agree with it. In fact, while most doctors would consult family, they might not all do so, and there are situations where a family member might not be in tune with the persons wishes.

This really irritates me.

Edited to add: and another thing - it's not just about medical care (in fact, even with a welfare LPA a doctor is still required to do their best for the patient and it's not possible to overrule their judgement) but it's also about other decisions such as living situation.