Deprivation of assets?

[Katrine]

Apologies for this longish post, but I am aiming to set context before I ask my questions. I have read the AgeUK factsheet, which is a very useful overview: http://www.ageuk.org.uk/Documents/E...est_for_care_home_provision_fcs.pdf?dtrk=true

We are in the situation where MIL is in hospital and is staying there for some weeks until GPs, OT, CMHT and SS have finished assessing what she needs in order to return home safely. The powers that be feel that MIL is not yet ready for residential care and their aim is for her to return home, but with a level of support that she has never previously had (she currently lives alone, with family support). They say they will be discussing it with us soon and have warned us that we must be prepared to talk about her money. OH is her attorney so only he will be handling this.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, we've been working hard to address a number of practical safety issues and do some general cleaning and decorating. Replacement of small electrical goods has also been necessary as their predecessors were defunct or dangerous. All this sprucing up has cost a few hundred pounds and can be evidenced by receipts. There have been similar flurries of expenditure over the last 3 years, doing repairs, replacing her mattress and TV, all normal household stuff that we all do, but tending to be in 'splurges' because we have to organise these things for her and it largely depends on whether I have the time to go into project mode!

And finally, before my questions, we are planning to refurbish and possibly replace her existing small kitchen, which no longer has a cooker in it and where the electrics need to be re-done before a cooker can be reinstalled. Her existing kitchen is falling apart; this is not a cosmetic exercise. We haven't decided to go ahead until we get some idea of how long she is likely to be able to live at home. It obviously is not worth installing a new kitchen for just a few months (she can manage with her microwave). And doing the kitchen would be purely for her, with easy to use pull-out drawers etc.

It has nothing to do with improving the value of the house. We assume that at some point it will have to be sold to pay for her care anyway.

You can imagine that if we do decide to do the kitchen, and privately evidence our choice carefully of course, the timing of this large expenditure might not be looked on with favour by SS. What do you think, and has anyone else had experience of a last-ditch refurb being justifiable in order to assist someone to remain at home?

My questions

Does deprivation of assets only refer to residential care, or also to community care services?

How do SS know what money has been spent, and when, in order to ensure that deprivation of assets has not taken place?

Will OH be legally required to produce historical bank statements, or an account of what has been spent on her home, and over what period?

 

[Goingitalone]

Hi there, Katrine,

I'm no expert on this. I've been asking similar questions myself.

However, I can tell you of my experience with Mum because it fits your situation almost exactly.

Mum's home has required quite a bit of remedial work over the last 10 years or so. The first thing we had to do was her back patio as it had become a trip hazard. The kitchen, bathroom and living room all had to have a makeover as the worktops in the kitchen were impossible to keep germ free, the bathroom floor was rotten and was dangerous and the living room was so gloomy it would have been depressing for someone to have to stay in it for long periods. The plaster came off with the paper so it had to be re-plasterboarded all over. Some of the dirtier work was done while Mum was in respite to avoid too much disruption to her routine and she had to spend the daytime in my brother's bedroom for a short time while some of the work was done.

With hindsight maybe it would have been better for her if we had left it, I don't know.

When the City Council's 'Fairer Charging' assessor came out her was happy with all we'd done. He did ask questions and I did provide all the receipts but there was no mention at all about deprivation of assets and she got full help with her care.

Hope this helps,

Maggie

 

[Katrine]

Thank you Maggie. I can see that if we go ahead with the kitchen some before photos would be useful as evidence.

 

[Goingitalone]

Excellent idea!

I find using words like 'a danger to health' 'trip hazard' 'safety issue' etc seems to have the desired effect. No-one can be expected to live somewhere that is dangerous to their health and safety.

All the best with it all. Jumping through all these hoops drives me mad, but, look on the bright side, it's an excellent way to keep fit!!

Maggie

 

[Katrine]

it's an excellent way to keep fit!!

If only! I am on the run all day at the moment, eating sandwiches and chockie bars when I manage to stop for a moment, and then falling on a bottle of wine in the evening; so I'm getting fatter not fitter! Reference your own strapline: "It's hard to feel as fit as a fiddle when you're the shape of a cello" which I love!

 

[Katrine]

OT help

OT from the hospital came to the house today and 'cased the joint', as she put it! Gave me 2 grab rails to fit in the bathroom (MIL's son will fit those) and a new wheelie trolley for the living room because the old one was kaput. Not sure about the H&S aspect of giving people grab rails to fit themselves; what if they are bodgers and their DIY efforts cause an accident? Oh well, let's not go there.

OT said not to change the layout of the kitchen and keep it as similar as possible, which we had already planned to do. I was pleased that all the little things we have been rushing round doing have made a difference to the way she assessed the house as safe. Apart from telling us to throw away all the little mats (which are a trip hazard) she was pleased with the house. She also said MIL should definitely qualify for Attendance Allowance which would help with cleaning and gardening.

Got the quote this afternoon from the kitchen company - I think it is do-able in terms of her budget. Yeah! another project for me to manage!

 

[Soobee]

Dad has spent a fair amount of mum's money on items but, like you, they are all to improve mum's circumstances so I am not worried about deprivation of assets.

Bought a car with a special swivel seat (she used this a few months but now can't get out of the house); bought a wheelchair (she promptly fell over and has never used this!); bought a chair that helps you stand up as well as reclining and massaging. (she used this for standing up for about a week and then could no longer stand, and she's never used the massage bits. She does use it as a normal chair though but has to be hoisted in to it).

Now dad is getting a patio folding door installed. This is mainly in case of fire, he is very worried because there is no way for him to get mum out of the house otherwise, and it has to be wide enough for him to push her out in her special bed. It won't add value to the house but it won't detract from the value either, but it will improve her quality of life if he can get her into the garden.

There's still no ramp installed to get mum out of the front or back door, so she is completely trapped at the moment because none of us can lift her.

 

[Katrine]

"In case of fire"

Apart from smoke alarms fitted last year that cause MIL great anxiety when she is incinerating something in the kitchen, I have made some improvements which the rest of my family thought were weird, but I know could make the difference between life and death.

MIL has a large heavy wooden garden swing seat on her small patio, directly outside her bedroom window. Last year I moved it away from the window so that she could get out in case of fire. I think she dragged it back again, either to deter burglars by blocking access to the window, or just to create more room on the patio.

Well I've dragged it out again and bought a large sturdy hardwood garden chair which I have crammed in to her bedroom in place of the flimsy cane chair that was there in front of the window. So if there was a fire she could climb out. I know it seems like overkill, but in an emergency she would hardly have the time to search the house for a suitable stool or stepladder!

I am getting a bit H&S obsessive, but am glad that the OT lady felt that we had made good progress. You cannot provide for every eventuality, and the householder is adept at thwarting our efforts to protect her, but hey ho, it's a good game!

 

[DozyDoris]

You can register with the fire service to show vulnerable people in a home and they can come and do a free assessment too.

Attendance Allowance is not means tested, she may also qualify for direct payments also.

I don't think you should be expected to fit grab rails, if you contact social services and ask for an assessment they should send someone round who will measure where they should be and arrange for them to be fitted.

Does your Mum use a microwave? May be a good idea to do away with the cooker.

I've looked at deprivation of assets a lot and it is very fluid but from what I can gather in laymans terms if you've used money/assets to help the person then you should be ok. If you had all gone off on a round the world cruise then it would be a bit different (although tempting!!!!) xx

 

[FifiMo]

Katrine

I think you are doing all the right things and you are approaching it correctly by making sure you have before and after pics and evidence of receipts etc. One thing you might also consider installing is one of those community care alarms that is linked to the telephone and where your MIL wears a bracelet or necklace that can be pressed if she has a fall etc. In addition they can now link a smoke detector to the phone as well so that if it goes off the care alarm kicks in and your MIL could be guided by someone on the intercom to help her deal with the situation. My mother has this in her home and we have seen how it works - particularly when some strange woman started talking to us one day during a power cut to ask why the wires had been disconnected. I have to say it took me a while to figure out who was talking to us ! LOL There is a charge for the phone of around £8.50/month but in my mind it is worth it for peace of mind if nothing else.

Another thing to consider if you are putting in a new kitchen is to make sure that when they are doing all the pipework etc that they fit isolation valves so at any point in the future these can be used to turn off appliances to keep your MIL safe but where carers can reach and turn them on to prepare a meal etc.

Best of luck and enjoy your project !

Fiona
x

 

[cragmaid]

Not 100%certain, but I believe that the VAT element could be avoided as she is in a chair and therefore disabled, might be worth asking about, CAB should know. I found this on the Disability Alliance website.

VAT exemptions
13 April 2011
If you are disabled you don't have to pay VAT when you buy equipment that has been designed solely for disabled people or which has been adapted for your use.

You will also not be charged VAT on certain services provided. This includes building work to adapt your home and the hire of disability equipment like wheelchairs.

For more information about this see HM Revenue and Customs leaflet 701/7 - VAT reliefs for disabled people. There is also information on the Directgov website.

I would ask the Local Authority about a grant for a ramp, or at least some moveable ramps, again have a word with the OT. Also notify the Gas and Electricity and water boards that there is a vulnerable adult living here.

 

[Margaret W]

YOur mum

I cannot see any reason to regard your expenditure as deprivation of assets. You have been spending her money to make her lifer safer.

Kind regards

Margaret

 

[Katrine]

Means-testing for SS services and funding?

Thank you all for your encouragement and advice. Kitchen is 95% likely to go ahead.

We particularly want to know if anyone has experience of what documentation, if any, SS require to see when they means-test a client? We are covering our backs by ensuring there is documented evidence of what has been spent and why, but ideally we don't particularly want to be cross-examined in detail by people about our financial affairs.

So if OH just gives them the figures, are SS likely then to demand to delve deeper into her spending, OR would only do this if they saw evidence of untoward spending?

And how do SS know whether someone has gifted large sums to family etc. (not that MIL has ) I'm trying to understand how it comes about that SS departments invoke the deprivation of assets legislation?

 

[FifiMo]

Katrine

I have just been through this as my mother is due to go into care sometime soon. I had to provide evidence to them of ALL her finances. Bank statements (previous 3 months worth), ISA certificates, title deeds for the house as well. I also had to provide evidence of regular income - eg Pension Statements. In addition, I had to provide evidence of financial commitments which I considered should continue even once my mother went into care - eg life insurance policies.

I know you are concerned about deprivation of assets and how they might view that, it does seem, from what I understood, that they are making sure that someone hasn't knowingly and deliberately transferred whopping great sums of money to another person's account in order to avoid paying care-home fees or, say, transferring title to the house in order to avoid this being used to pay for care. Even if title for the house has been transferred previously, they can decide that that was done when the person was "of sound mind" for example and disregard this. On the other hand they could go after anything that they consider has been done in order to restrict their access to funds. I think you will find that the kitchen for example would be viewed as an investment which would increase the value of the house (as well as addressing the health and safety concerns) and therefore reap more income at the point that it would be sold.

Hope this helps...

Fiona

 

[Katrine]

Thank you

That is really helpful Fiona

 

[Nebiroth]

Does deprivation of assets only refer to residential care, or also to community care services?

How do SS know what money has been spent, and when, in order to ensure that deprivation of assets has not taken place?

Will OH be legally required to produce historical bank statements, or an account of what has been spent on her home, and over what period?

A lot of this is at the discretion of the Local Authority.

Deprivation of assets can apply to almost all means-tested services. So it would apply to community care as well - essentially, anything that you have to pay for if you have sufficient assets to pay for or get free if you don't. It also applies to things like Pension Credit - there can be problems if you have lots of savings but give them away to qualify for that.

As part of the assessment you can be legally required to produce all kinds of financial paperwork including things like bank and credit card statements - if there are large expenditures and espescially unusual ones or gifts then the local authority will want to know all about them. There is, technically speaking, no time limit as to how far back they can go when looking into someone's finances. The more "suspiscious" things are the more rigorously they'll look at things. For example, if someone is obviously "well off" eg has a large, well maintained house, car, goes on regular holidays etc but qualifies for free services....

It is thus very wise to keep good records of how much has been spent, on what, with evidence (such as receipts and quotes).

From what you say I can't imagine that it would be regarded as a DOA - but keeping records is always a good idea.

It is inevitable with budgetary cut-backs everywhere, the more strictly they will assess everyone.

 

[petromany]

Deprivation of assets.

Hi, your messages were of interest to me, as my husband, who has dementia, but nowhere near requiring residential care, is insisting thatt he transfers his share of our property into my name. This could b e done, as myself and daughter have poa, but I am worried that the LA could step in and say that it was done to avoid ch fees. This would not be the case, as if he had to go into a ch he would be self funding, hwever is care home fees spiralled during the nexxt 5-10 years say, we might need help. Any advice o this subject, do I just do what he wants and hope for the best.....

Apologies for this longish post, but I am aiming to set context before I ask my questions. I have read the AgeUK factsheet, which is a very useful overview: http://www.ageuk.org.uk/Documents/E...est_for_care_home_provision_fcs.pdf?dtrk=true

We are in the situation where MIL is in hospital and is staying there for some weeks until GPs, OT, CMHT and SS have finished assessing what she needs in order to return home safely. The powers that be feel that MIL is not yet ready for residential care and their aim is for her to return home, but with a level of support that she has never previously had (she currently lives alone, with family support). They say they will be discussing it with us soon and have warned us that we must be prepared to talk about her money. OH is her attorney so only he will be handling this.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, we've been working hard to address a number of practical safety issues and do some general cleaning and decorating. Replacement of small electrical goods has also been necessary as their predecessors were defunct or dangerous. All this sprucing up has cost a few hundred pounds and can be evidenced by receipts. There have been similar flurries of expenditure over the last 3 years, doing repairs, replacing her mattress and TV, all normal household stuff that we all do, but tending to be in 'splurges' because we have to organise these things for her and it largely depends on whether I have the time to go into project mode!

And finally, before my questions, we are planning to refurbish and possibly replace her existing small kitchen, which no longer has a cooker in it and where the electrics need to be re-done before a cooker can be reinstalled. Her existing kitchen is falling apart; this is not a cosmetic exercise. We haven't decided to go ahead until we get some idea of how long she is likely to be able to live at home. It obviously is not worth installing a new kitchen for just a few months (she can manage with her microwave). And doing the kitchen would be purely for her, with easy to use pull-out drawers etc.

It has nothing to do with improving the value of the house. We assume that at some point it will have to be sold to pay for her care anyway.

You can imagine that if we do decide to do the kitchen, and privately evidence our choice carefully of course, the timing of this large expenditure might not be looked on with favour by SS. What do you think, and has anyone else had experience of a last-ditch refurb being justifiable in order to assist someone to remain at home?

My questions

Does deprivation of assets only refer to residential care, or also to community care services?

How do SS know what money has been spent, and when, in order to ensure that deprivation of assets has not taken place?

Will OH be legally required to produce historical bank statements, or an account of what has been spent on her home, and over what period?

 

[jenniferpa]

Dear Petromany

Did you see my response on this thread?

http://forum.alzheimers.org.uk/showthread.php?35282-Help-!!!!&p=477934#post477934

I have to say that while he might want to this, about the only effect of doing this (provided you stay living in the property) is to 1) enrich the solicitors who draw up the papers, 2) put you in very bad odour with the PGO. As attorneys you are expected to do what is required to protect a person's assets. No matter how well meaning, making a transfer from his name to yours of a property share will not only not shelter it from the LA (should you decide to move) it could potentially cause the pair of you to be removed as attorneys. I'm not saying the latter is likely, but it (the transfer) is such a really bad idea and totally unnecessary that I have to point it out to you.

 

[Nebiroth]

Hi, your messages were of interest to me, as my husband, who has dementia, but nowhere near requiring residential care, is insisting thatt he transfers his share of our property into my name. This could b e done, as myself and daughter have poa, but I am worried that the LA could step in and say that it was done to avoid ch fees. This would not be the case, as if he had to go into a ch he would be self funding, hwever is care home fees spiralled during the nexxt 5-10 years say, we might need help. Any advice o this subject, do I just do what he wants and hope for the best.....

Hi, first of all, it's important to realise that your property must be disregarded for as long as you remain living in it. This is because of an automatic protection given to spouses/civil partners. If your husband goes into care, your home will not be included as an asset as long as you - his wife - lives in it. The same protection is given to any relative who is aged 60+ or dependent child under 18. It can also be given to carers who have no home of their own, although this is at the discretion of the local authority. In short, there is little to be gained from your husband giving his share of the property to you.

Is the property owned jointly or as a tenancy in common? If it is jointly owned then, legally speaking, you both own the entire property - this means that if either of you dies, then the surviving partner automatically becomes the sole owner. This over-rides what any Will might say.

If you are a tenancy in common, each of you owns their own share to dispose of as they wish. This means that if one of you should die, they can leave it in a Will to, say, a child. This has the benefit of removing any possibility of that share being used to fund care fees should the surviving partner go into care. It also makes the sale of the property to fund care fees much less likely, since it's almost impossible to sell half a house. It also reduces the "value" of the part the partner owns as regards care fees. There are also some Inheritance Tax advantages although these are less after the recent changes in which spouses could 'inherit' their deceased partner's unused portion of the Nil Rate Band. If you are not already Tenants in Common, it might be worth looking into that although do keep in mind there are disadvantages - as I say, each of your shares becomes something you can do whatever you like with whereas joint owners can only do things if they both agree to it.

Giving away part or all of the property to someone would almost certainly be regarded as a Deprivation of Assets. It would also be unwise for an attorney to gift themselves with property.

In short, I think what your husband wants to do should be approached with extreme caution. Giving property to you would be of virtually no benefit. Giving it to other people could be positively harmful - you could pay a lot of solicitor fees and end up in a worse position.

The main thing to do is to reassure your husband that the home you and he live in cannot be touched if one of you goes into care but the other remains living in it. This protection is absolute and there are no exceptions. The home might be included as an asset if both of you go into residential care.

 

[jillrob]

Dad's assets

My dad is 83 and has been diagnosed with Alzheimer's.In the event that he may need a nursing home how do I stand with finances?Dad sold his property a few years ago and came to live with us.(council bungalow and disabled friendly for my husband.)I have a joint account with Dad and am shortly to have Power of Attorney as suggested by his Consultant.He has a substantial amount in the bank,but under the terms of Mum's will,I shall receive half of this upon Dad's death with my children sharing the other half.A large percentage is tied up in two ISA's.How do I stand with the payment of nursing home fees?