How to deal with stubbornness?!

artyfarty

Registered User
Oct 30, 2009
267
0
London
Most of the issues I have with my mum come down to her out-right refusal to be 'reminded' about anything. I've tried to remind gently - humorously - firmly; with verbal instructions - written instructions - anything I can think of. I'm just not getting anywhere. Everything I suggest - that she might like to shower occasionally - brush her teeth - or whatever is always met with an aggressive refusal. She says I am interfering or that I am stupid.

I know it is probably fear that is making her behave like this but some things shouldn't be left (example - she now needs several fillings because she forgets to clean her teeth most of the time). Anyone found any techniques to help with this?
 

starryuk

Registered User
Nov 8, 2012
1,323
0
Sorry Arty,

I haven't had this (yet). The only thing I wonder is would a bit of reverse psychology work?. ie: Tell your mum she is not allowed to have a shower today because she might slip/it's too cold etc

Just a thought...

xx

Ps. If you find a solution, please let us know for future reference!!
 

pippop1

Registered User
Apr 8, 2013
498
0
With MIL we say that the Dr says she must do so and so and she seems to be more accepting. We blame other people who are authority figures or say that things are a free service from the Government for people over 80 so she may as well take advantage of whatever it is (e.g. having her hair cut).

If things are free she is much more compliant! Also we lie about how much things cost e.g. washing machine repair is £10.
 

FifiMo

Registered User
Feb 10, 2010
4,703
0
Wiltshire
We had the same experience and part of the problem was that we were her children and so it was easy for our mother to ignore our suggestions and to get annoyed. She didn't need to be told anything and wasn't willing to see the family dynamic change so that we could help her. In addition, I think she was protecting her privacy too as a lot of the issues were about things like personal hygiene. The matter was resolved by getting a carer to oversee these things. My mother complied with the carer and they were able to use a different approach that she couldn't argue with. No cajoling. The carer ran a bath then came down and told her it was waiting for her. Off she went stomping her feet. Her privacy was protected with the carer only entering to help her into the bath, then she removed the clothes, put out new ones then waited outside the room until my mother was ready to get out. Stupid thing about the protests was that once she was in there she loved it. She would be happy and relaxed afterwards and admitted that she felt great!

Right up to the end, the dynamic didn't change. She accepted personal care from strangers but not from us, which was fine. Maybe it is similar for you and these are tasks which you should consider passing on to someone else.

Fiona
 

2jays

Registered User
Jun 4, 2010
11,598
0
West Midlands
Oooh the battles

A very wise person, when I first joined, advised me to choose my battles to fight.

One week without washing - no fight needed

One month without washing - battle, but be prepared to loose

Three months without washing - go for it. Battle and do your best to win, if only so you can then leave the battle until the next 3 months.... Or so you don't gag when you get close...

Those in the middle ages only bathed when it rained. And we are here because they didn't die for want of a wash.

Pick your battles.

In mums world it's ok to have egg on her jumper for as long as she wants to wear the jumper.... In society egg on jumper is a no no

If it's not causing infection don't bother to battle.

So says a daughter of a mother who was always impeccably dressed and even ironed her knickers.....my mum who is now happy and content... cosy in her egg stained jumper
 
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1954

Registered User
Jan 3, 2013
3,835
0
Sidcup
2jays, I agree, choose your battles

Do I care if my MIL brushes her teeth.......no. The brush is there with the toothpaste in the most prominent place in the bathroom

Do I care is she refuses to wash her feet...........no

Do I care if she doesn't wash her private parts...........yes but she can get away with not washing only once a week as I can't stand the smell in our house

There are many more things that I just have no energy to 'battle' over

Anyway why bother? She is always right. She states she has always done everything I ask of her. As she would say 'I am not stupid you know' :)
 

Jessbow

Registered User
Mar 1, 2013
5,735
0
Midlands
I went down to Mum the other night, to physically put her to bed and check the doors were locked.
''Just going to check the back door'' say I
''I locked it when I came back in'' says she.

and the convo continued......

what did you go out for?
to hang out the washing

who put the washing machine on then?
I did- she says- your father had worn umpteen shirts

is the washing in now?
Yes, I have put it in the conservatory.

Okay well, I'll just go and check the back door so i know its locked.

-----------------------
You need to bear in mind that a) Mum does nothing ( and I mean nothing) for herself, and is completely dependant on myself/hubby and carers. She sits from when we get her up, until we put her back to bed. we put food in front of her, and take her to the loo through the day.
b) that dad died 12 months ago
-----------------------------------

No, stubborn isn't the word here, but its a certain belief that she has done things ( and she used to assure dad she had) The same perhaps applies to your M-in-law. if you tell her to wash, the idea goes in, and she then thinks she has.

I dont suppose she retains the info ''I need to go and have a wash'' so a carer going and saying ''Right, time for a wash, NOW'' might be the way to go.
my mum will swear blind that she ate her lunch, despite it still sitting beside her. Visual clues mean zilch!
 

Izzy

Volunteer Moderator
Aug 31, 2003
74,446
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Dundee
I was just going to suggest the same approach as Jessbow. With my mum it always worked she we said 'Ok, it's time for your bath/ shower.' rather than 'Would you like to ...'

I take a similar approach to my husband. 'Right, here's your coat, it's time for our walk.'

Good luck.
 

artyfarty

Registered User
Oct 30, 2009
267
0
London
My post was prompted last night by my trying to get my mum to clean her teeth. For some reason she keeps hoarding things in her room - and her toothbrush is one of them. I was trying to get her to leave it in the bathroom so that the sight of it might prompt her. I thought I was being very clever when I suggested she keep the toothpaste in her room as well. I thought she might think that would be ridiculous and it might give her the idea to let me put her toothbrush in the bathroom. Turns out I was the ridiculous one because now the toothpaste has disappeared as well.

I have to say that I do love this forum. All your answers are so insightful and useful. Especially yours Fifimo. My mum was always very forceful in her opinions. Even when I got married and had my daughter she still spoke to me like I was 15. Understanding why she behaves the way she does, doesn't necessarily mean I'm going to manage the situation any better but it really does help to understand her thinking.

I have noticed that she responds to other people much better than me and I am mindful of the comments about getting a carer. At the moment she is as fit as a fiddle and easily physically capable which is what has put me off getting a carer in.

As you all say, choosing my battles more wisely might help. I've always been a bit of a linear thinker - these things need doing so let's achieve them. I find it a real struggle to let things go or think 'outside the box' but I'm going to have to work on that aren't i?!
 

1954

Registered User
Jan 3, 2013
3,835
0
Sidcup
Unfortunately I think you may have to think out of the box but its very hard to change habits of a life time
 

ancient&modern

Registered User
Oct 19, 2013
11
0
Unfortunately I think you may have to think out of the box but its very hard to change habits of a life time

my father used to sit for hours on the narrow wooded edge of the arm of a chair. he wouldn't sit in the seat. sometimes, being over 90, he'd get tired and like a parrot, fall off his perch. then a variation, he would not even enter the room, but remain in the hall, leaning on the wall, after coming back from day-centre. no amount of pleading, begging, suggestions etc from me would make any difference. fed up, i'd go and watch tv. one night there was a noise and he'd slumped forward/sideways. wouldn't or couldn't get up. difficult to tell. ambulance. hospital, all day, discharged, even tho siblings and I said he was not as usual. but the good thing, side effect, when he came in, he asked what do we do now. unheard of. go upstairs I said, where now, into bed, accepted help, expected direction and took it.
a bit sad, in some ways, guess he must have been really shook up. but better for us of course, and indeed safer for him.
he'd spent over 14 hrs in the hospital. they insisted he was fit to go. that was Friday. he had to be lifted into bed by ambulance men at home. normally very fit physically and agile.
on monday morning, he'd gone to daycentre much protesting, dragging all his heavy clothes with him, when he could barely walk, and getting down the stairs, I was terrified he would come a cropper, very aggressive, ranting etc,
, I just about to leave to rush to work, a call from the emergency consultant at hosp. he'd reviewed x-rays, there was a crack in the trocantur of the hip, the bit that sticks out at the side. I said, we told them he wasn't right. well he said you could have brought him back... after them having made out we were time wasters....trying to palm off caring for him...we'd asked them specifically to look at the x-rays again....they wouldn't... to this the consultant on the phone said we don't automatically review all the x-rays...

does anyone else have this experience with medics/ social workers/ officials... they say something on the matter you've raised, but just to the side of it, not addressing the specific, it's like a war of attrition, it wears you down, and so much on-going to cope with.. you give up..

anyway, luckily, it did not need surgery, but all agreed it must have been very painful for father, and he couldn't tell us that, didn't understand that was what was affecting him.
anyway, sometimes something happens that breaks the bad pattern, and a chance to establish a better one emerges.
he now goes straight upstairs on coming in, sits on bed, has food there, tv at end of bed, so I can get him into bed when needed. it just about works.
recently we discovered a discarded Tesco trolley, small one, and he loves going for walks with it, driving it.

good luck everyone.
 
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dippydora

Registered User
Apr 2, 2013
68
0
Lalaland
Our dad has been diagnosed for last 3 years......and for that time we have had such battles to get him to wash/shower/clean teeth/change clothes. We hardly ever win....Ive showered 3 times today he will tell us!! Never been near the shower for months....Ive cleaned my teeth after every meal.....not for at least 3 years! Aw man Ive just got changed into these clothes.......yes, say I, two weeks ago! I have to rifle through his wardrobe and drawers to get dirty clothes, which he will hang up! Only things I cant get are his vest and underpants. We have asked ALL the professionals who CANNOT give us any suggestions how to get him to do these things. I put on the shower (he has a walk-in shower and no bath) and tell him to get in, ask him nicely, persuade him, bribe him, shout at him......nothing works. As for getting his hair cut!!! He now looks like a completely mad professor. We have had professionals trying to get him in, nothing works. Next step.......hosepipe in the garden! LOL :D shouldnt laugh, but what else can we do? Good luck and if you find an answer PLEASE post it, Im sure more than just me would be forever grateful :cool:
 

Katee

Registered User
Sep 19, 2013
16
0
Glasgow
If I said black my mother would say white so I no longer opinion. She still knows I am her daughter and doesn't like the role reversal or the loss of her control & independence. If dad forgot her pills (10 highly potent in morning + more at lunch, dinner & bed) she would take them with lunchtime pills which meant she was double-dozing! Shock horror, rows. She's confined to chair & dad (who's old) lets her have all incoming mail but she manages lose everything by 'filing things away' inside magazines & catalogues (she's been frauded in the past). Dad wont stop giving her mail but I planted a seed & made her think she thought of it that she was good at putting things in bull-dog clips and keeping things in order which she's nearly got right. No more bank statements & hospital appointment cards in rubbish for the moment. Wont shower what I think is enough either and it's taken over two years to get her to wear pull-on trousers and knickers that aren't four sizes too small that are easier to get on. Re the shower, I'm going to try with "everyone admires the way you keep yourself" and she does like to look nice but I'm not holding my breath. Thinking about you... and all of us because it's not the physical work I find hard or running my parent's house part-time, it is indeed the stubbornness that's so wearing and exhausting.
 

susy

Registered User
Jul 29, 2013
801
0
North East
My dad was physically able to get himself showered however he didn't. The arguments he had with my mum about it were awful. Anyway, we got a carer in and they are brilliant. My dad now has a shower without any hassle at all twice a week. Fabulous.
 

Witzend

Registered User
Aug 29, 2007
4,283
0
SW London
My dad was physically able to get himself showered however he didn't. The arguments he had with my mum about it were awful. Anyway, we got a carer in and they are brilliant. My dad now has a shower without any hassle at all twice a week. Fabulous.

We had the devil's own job to get either my mother or my FIL (several years previously) to bath or shower. Yet once in their care homes the staff seemed to manage it fine. I think as others have said that it is a lot easier for non family, who do not come with all this emotional/historical baggage.

As for stubbornness, well, my FIL could be unbelievably stubborn anyway, never mind with dementia added in. I think the problem is usually exacerbated a lot by memory loss, I.e. they simply can't remember and so are not aware at any given moment that they can't manage to do do this or that any more (how dare you suggest that they're incapable?) so in their own minds of course they don't need any help.

In extreme cases I would agree with whoever said that you have to be a mite brutal, say e.g., well! it's up to you, but if you won't accept help then it will be out of my hands and the dr/Sws will take over and put you in a home. But then what do you do when in the meantime they have completely forgotten whatever you have said, and still won't let carers in? My mother only had carers to make sure she took her Aricept, but half the time she wouldn't let them in, since according to her there was nothing wrong with her, she wasn't in need of any meds, and no, she certainly wasn't going to allow some random stranger into the house. (Perfectly sensible in normal circs.) We did try phoning to remind her bit of course she would forget the instant she had put the phone down.
Just as well the Aricept made so little difference, and that largely negative, that it was stopped anyway.
 
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treecol

Registered User
Mar 22, 2013
220
0
My Dad quite happily tells SW, CPN, Dr that he's not going to be told what to do by a woman - ie me. I try to suggest not tell but it's all the same to him. Last week I was on the phone to the SW & he starts ranting to me about how there's no need to shower. He was smeared with excrement. The SW heard the whole 1/2 hour conversation with him. She said afterwards she was appalled. She said it was good to hear what we struggle with as each time she visits her clients, they are on best behaviour. Now she has more insight as he was really verbally aggressive. The conversation with him went on for a further hour & his aggression peaked - he looked like he was going to hit me. So I told him I'd take him to hospital so they could shower him. That did the trick & he got in. Don't like it to get to that but in this case he had to shower - he was trailing poo round the house.
Really bizarre that someone wouldn't want to get clean after that.
 

artyfarty

Registered User
Oct 30, 2009
267
0
London
Chatting to my mum this evening (well, I was doing most of the talking!) I did manage to find out that the issue of keeping her tooth brush in the bedroom (and therefore not remembering to use it) seems to have been caused by an incident about six months ago when my daughter and I found out mum had been randomly using our toothbrushes.

Yuck, euw and gag!

Anyway, my daughter was horrified and was complaining to me. I think my mum overheard this and is now worried that she will use somebody else's brush - hence keeping it in her room.

I've told here that there is no chance of this happening (daughter and I started hiding our own brushes when we found out) and persuaded her to put her own brush back in the bathroom. She seems happy enough about it this evening - hoping it will still be there in the morning.

Interesting to have found a cause for this particular problem - not sure it will lead to a solution but hey-ho!
 

little shettie

Registered User
Nov 10, 2009
221
0
I can so identify with you all really. My mum is the same, so stubborn and bloody minded! If I say blue she says black, and I have to walk on eggshells for fear of setting her off. Up until a couple of months ago she was always willing to shower or bath and I'd wash her hair etc but now no matter what time I get to hers, if she's already got her clothes on, which she does nine times out of ten, then I have no chance of getting her in the shower. If shes still in her dressing gown then I have a chance but even then, if I mention shower she always said shes already had one even though the shower is bone dry!! Then she'll say, do I think shes dirty of something and if I even comment or look at her dirty top, well WW3 breaks out! Sometimes I can cope and say little, other times I cannot and say a lot. Too much really but she pushes me to the limit. Shes always on the defensive, even if I make the most innocent of comments she takes it the wrong way. Whenever I do manage to get her in the bath or shower, I then quickly rush around trying to find dirty clothes that' she has put away in drawers or hung up, then I spend the rest of the time hunting for her lost purse, keys, glasses, jewellery box etc etc!!! :rolleyes: As someone said, its wearing going through this day in, day out. She has carers but will not allow them to do a thing, especially shower!!
 

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