Damage caused by Nana in Care Home

ozzylou

Registered User
Aug 6, 2011
4
0
Hi there this is my first time on talking point so here goes. My husbands Nana has been in a local care home for appx 4 months. She has Dementia and is therefore in a unit to cater for her needs. At around 5.30 one morning she wandered out of her room to the lounge and for whatever reason she pulled the TV of the shelf and smashed it. (No carers were present at this time.) However the Manager has now sent us the bill for a new telly for £299.00 claiming that his insurance won't cover a new one under the value of £500.00 (old telly was apparently worth £800), and wants Nana to pay for it. Although Nana broke the TV I don't think she should necessarily be made to pay, so when we queried this with the manager he made a comment along the lines of " you wouldn't want to be looking for somewhere else for her to stay". Although my family are disgusted at this remark they now feel compelled to pay so as not to cause any trouble or upset for Nana. The staff have been very good by the way. The new TV has now been bolted down. What should we do? :mad:confused
 

Grannie G

Volunteer Moderator
Apr 3, 2006
81,801
0
Kent
I would be the one with the complaint.
Your grandmother was left at risk, being unsupervised in a room with an unsafe television. It is lucky she wasn`t seriously hurt.
If the TV has now been bolted down, it shows this should have happened in the first place.
I would also report the manger for his comment.
 

Onlyme

Registered User
Apr 5, 2010
4,992
0
UK
Someone asked a very similar question a month or so ago.


http://forum.alzheimers.org.uk/showthread.php?35519-Is-this-right!!!


This is obviously becoming a problem due to the new types of TV. As more areas switch over and have to buy new ones it will probably happen again if TVs are not bolted down.

It sounds as if the manager might be trying to save himself having to pay the £500 as anyone working in that environment would know that TV was at great risk. If he had done his job properly and got it bolted then you wouldn't be in this position.

I've just had a thought. Why would your grandmother take against a bit of black plastic in the middle of the night? Had the night shift left it on and gone off to do something else? If that is the case I can see your Gran not wanting the voices on when semi asleep but that is still the homes fault for leaving it on.
 
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sistermillicent

Registered User
Jan 30, 2009
2,949
0
How can they prove the TV wasn't precariously balanced when your Nana went into the room? Definitely you should take the view with the manager that it was she who was at risk here. If their insurance policy doesn't cover the TV then that is their fault.

If the manager is saying that she might have to look for a new home I would just ignore it, (other than reporting him) because to have a bed unoccupied for even a week while he finds someone else, with all the arrangements and assessments they have to do, will cost well more than £299.

Don't worry about taking a stand, the manager is able to say these things to you so is quite able to hear what you want to say,

Pippa x
 

lin1

Registered User
Jan 14, 2010
9,350
0
East Kent
Hi Welcome to TP
It sounds to me that the homes insurance is not adequate ,or may not even have insurance, so I would ask to see it

A few points to aid you
how do they know it was nana who broke th tv , being found in a room where damage has occurred is no proof that, that person was the one who broke the item

In my view The said tv should have been securely fixed , so as to prevent INJURY to people

And id also be asking why nana was left unsupervised in (i assume ) the lounge , thats assuming the night staff were aware nana had left her room(in my view they certainly should know )

Look closely at contract with the home , if it doesnt state somewhere about nana's liabilities for breakages ect then she is not liable to pay , do pay attention to the small print , thats where most nasties are hidden away

Im sure others will be along soon with more advise

Please let us know how u get on
 

DLM

Registered User
so when we queried this with the manager he made a comment along the lines of " you wouldn't want to be looking for somewhere else for her to stay". Although my family are disgusted at this remark they now feel compelled to pay so as not to cause any trouble or upset for Nana. The staff have been very good by the way. The new TV has now been bolted down. What should we do? :mad:confused

That was a nasty remark

They have admitted their error by bolting down the new set

Is there a contract to review ?

I guess the next off hand remark might be to manager somethin g about is it worth pursuing us in a legal battle <g>.

It was a used TV so why pay for replacement costs.
 

ozzylou

Registered User
Aug 6, 2011
4
0
Hi everyone, thanks for all of your comments, you have confirmed what my husband and I feel so we are going to talk again before handing over any money.

By the way Nana did admit to pulling the TV of the shelf. We are naturally relieved she didn't hurt herself or for that matter anyone else. The staff had mentioned that they thought Nana had been hallucinating before this incident.

I have read a signed contract and the only thing it mentions about insurance is that residents are only covered up to the value of £500 for personal possessions. Definitely no mention of paying for breakages.

My mum-in-law has asked me to write a covering letter to send in with the cheque outlining our feelings and to let the Owner know that we are not happy (I can't explain in words what I think) but I do understand that they are worried what might happen, but what happens if something else gets broken? Will keep you posted. Thanks for listening.

P.S thanks Pippa I hadn't thought about how much he would lose with an empty bed, I hope you don't mind but I am going to mention that.
Ozzylou xx
 

Onlyme

Registered User
Apr 5, 2010
4,992
0
UK
However the Manager has now sent us the bill for a new telly for £299.00 claiming that his insurance won't cover a new one under the value of £500.00 (old telly was apparently worth £800), and wants Nana to pay for it.

Having had more coffee and reread that it sounds like the insurance excess is £300 for any claim they make. It sounds like he is trying to offload his excess.
 

sussexsue

Registered User
Jun 10, 2009
1,527
0
West Sussex
My mum-in-law has asked me to write a covering letter to send in with the cheque outlining our feelings and to let the Owner know that we are not happy (I can't explain in words what I think) but I do understand that they are worried what might happen, but what happens if something else gets broken? Will keep you posted. Thanks for listening.

I think you letter should clearly state:

That your payment is a one-off goodwill gesture.
That your signed contract makes no mention of paying for breakages, and you would like to be made aware of any variances to this contract.
That a Health and Safety assessment is made to ensure that heavy objects are safely secured so that your nana is not put at further risk.
That you would like these matters addressed in writing.

I can understand your parents succumbing to this emotional blackmail, but it is so wrong. It must make you very angry.

Sue
 

DLM

Registered User
[/UOTE]

Choose your battles carefully.

Some things are better left to conversations than to be put in writing.

For a small cost I prefer to have written statements sent by attorneys.

Maybe a donation to the "discretionary" fund without mention directly of the TV set. Or a gift in-kind.
They are IMHO responsible for damage by a client known to have dementia and should have prevented if from occurring.

On the AA forum in USA There is a long discussion about urine damage to a rug on
Quoting from their discussion: "If XXXXXXXX actually fights the facility, she has to be prepared to move her dad. (Although she might want to consider doing that, anyway. This doesn't sound like a good facility to be in for the long haul.)"
 
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JPG1

Account Closed
Jul 16, 2008
3,391
0
Choose your battles carefully.

Some things are better left to conversations than to be put in writing.

For a small cost I prefer to have written statements sent by attorneys.


On the AA forum in USA .....


Hi DLM

I hope you won't mind me saying this, but people who may not realise that you live in the USA may be confused by the terminology you use, and also by the fact that perhaps you may not be in 'touch' with the sensitivities here in the UK, and the way things work here if you want to achieve a result.

Attorney means Lawyer where you live, but here it most often means an appointed Power of Attorney, either via EPA (Enduring Power of Attorney) or via LPA (Lasting Power of Attorney). Those appointed via EPA or LPA are called Attorney here.

But here, a Solicitor (less often called a Lawyer) is the person educated, trained in the law and qualified to practise as a solicitor (or lawyer), and then able to charge £300 per hour (or thereabouts) for their services. And that perhaps would be the 'small cost' equivalent that you mention. It's no small cost here though. It's a big cost - and in this particular case, could cost more than the £299 being demanded (totally unfairly) by a care home manager for a TV that should have been safely secured so that residents would not be endangered.

AA = Attendance Allowance here. (Alternatively, it also stands for Alcoholics Anonymous, but that's less often featured on this particular forum.)

We have perhaps a different culture emerging, whereby people realise that you achieve little that lasts longer than a moment, unless you place your concerns in writing and also request a response in writing. You only need to understand how Terry Bryan was completely ignored when he was reporting serious care concerns, even tho' he put many into emails.

A well-crafted letter, sent by Recorded Delivery or Special Delivery, carries more weight than a polite and gentle conversation, important though they are, but they should not enter the frame of 'legal questions'. But, so often, when push comes to shove ..... you have no choice but to place your concerns in writing.

The care home manager is out of order, making such a demand. And there is no way that it should be paid, by cheque with an accompanying letter. If the original TV cost £800, why is it being replaced with a TV costing £300? The insurance policy would cover full replacement - unless there are clauses in the policy that the original poster doesn't know about ... yet!

It would be far more acceptable for a copy of the Insurance Policy to be presented to the person who has received an outrageous demand for payment.

However the Manager has now sent us the bill for a new telly for £299.00 claiming that his insurance won't cover a new one under the value of £500.00 (old telly was apparently worth £800), and wants Nana to pay for it.

Ozzylou, if the old telly cost £800, that is the sum it would have been insured for. So my letter to the C/H Manager would go along the lines of

"Dear XXXX,

We find ourselves enormously disturbed to discover that our relative was in danger because a TV set was not securely positioned so that it could not be pulled from the shelf.

We are willing to give further consideration to your request for £299 to pay for the new Television set that you have already purchased to replace the damaged TV that cost £800. Of course, we are also pleased to learn that the new TV set is now securely positioned and fastened so that it can no longer endanger the residents.

However, in return, we would ask you to give further consideration to your request also. Please supply a copy of your insurance policy so that we can rest assured that it covers the safety of all residents."

Many other things I could think of adding to that letter - one of which might be to ask what the chosen level of excess is, because otherwise the residents will be at risk of such unacceptable demands in the future.
 

FifiMo

Registered User
Feb 10, 2010
4,703
0
Wiltshire
I'd go further than JPG is suggesting and say that you wish to see the insurance policy, the correspondence from the insurance company stating they are not willing to pay the full replacement amount for the tv under the policy and the reason why not (most accidental damage policies these days are new for old - not old for old!). In addition, I would ask to see the receipt for the television which has been purchased. Have you checked to see what make and model the new one is and how much you can purchase them for?

Quite frankly this all sounds like a bit of a scam, possibly aimed at avoidance of claims on the insurance policy and the increased insurance premiums which might accrue. Do you know for example if this home is part of a group of homes? If so it could be that they group holds collective insurance for all its homes and they are trying to avoid claiming. It sounds as though the £500 could be their excess (which they are using towards the new tv rather than going through the insurance) and that you are being asked to pick up the difference. All of course for their benefit and not yours.

Soooooo, don't admit liability for anything - goodwill gestures or any such thing until they have provided you with the proof that the insurance is valid and that they have refused to pay!

If they dare to repeat the threat of you having to move your nana to another home, tell them that you don't think that would be a wise statement for them to be making right now as you have not yet concluded whether they placed your nana at undue risk in the first place. Tell them you'll get back to them on that one, once you've taken advice!

Fiona
 

Beachcomber

Registered User
what a cheek!

You have received some clever advice.
All I have to say is "Dont give em a cent!"
If she had been left unattended longer and completely trashed the room would you be expected to pay thousands?

Its up to them to ensure safety first for the residents and then for their equipment.
What would have happened if she had thrown a jug of water into it?

Dementia has to tell them they are going to get some unsociable behaviour surely!
All the best
 

Onlyme

Registered User
Apr 5, 2010
4,992
0
UK
If they dare to repeat the threat of you having to move your nana to another home, tell them that you don't think that would be a wise statement for them to be making right now as you have not yet concluded whether they placed your nana at undue risk in the first place. Tell them you'll get back to them on that one, once you've taken advice!

Fiona

100% behind you on that one.
 

sussexsue

Registered User
Jun 10, 2009
1,527
0
West Sussex
I think many of us on here would not pay for the damage, unless proved liable. I know I certainly wouldnt. However the poster, ozzylou, is the in difficult position of having to support her MIL, whose I believe has made the decision to pay for fear of reprisals, whilst probably disagreeing with the decision herself. It must be very hard for her.
 

JPG1

Account Closed
Jul 16, 2008
3,391
0
Sue, i certainly took on board too the fact that MIL is concerned about the possibility of reprisals. But, if the situation is not handled properly now, unfair demands may continue, and then MIL may be at further risk of abuse simply by acceding to the bully. Fear escalates then.

As Bea said, what if the whole room is trashed? Where would that leave MIL? Perhaps wishing that things had been sorted properly at the start.

The reprisals will then be even more damaging, so it might be better to have the whole situation clarified at the beginning, rather than allowing things to escalate in the future.

A care home is supposed to provide a safe and secure environment for all residents.

Fear doesn't come into it.

It's the responsibility of the care home provider to provide safe and secure care.

So that neither resident nor relative needs to be fearful of the consequences of a dementia related incident. And that goes for the staff too. They are all to be safe and secure, and insured properly.
 

TinaT

Registered User
Sep 27, 2006
7,097
0
Costa Blanca Spain
You are in the difficult position of being the third party in this and so your hands are tied regarding paying the money for the tv.

I was incenced to read about the managers request and if it had been my husband who is also in a dementia care home, I would have told him/her that he/she was lucky I was not making a formal complaint of neglect to the CQC, the owner of the care home and the social services!

It is utter negligence to have allowed a resident to be in a position to be able to do this! This is not an ordinary care home but a dementia unit where the safety of patients is paramount. Firstly the resident should not have been alone and secondly the TV set should have been securely mounted.

xxTinaT
 

DLM

Registered User
Hi DLM

I hope you won't mind me saying this, but people who may not realise that you live in the USA may be confused by the terminology you use, and also by the fact that perhaps you may not be in 'touch' with the sensitivities here in the UK, and the way things work here if you want to achieve a result.

Don't mind at all. I came to learn. Will acknowledge that this is my first attempt to learn about sensitivities in other countries.

Attorney means Lawyer where you live, but here it most often means an appointed Power of Attorney, either via EPA (Enduring Power of Attorney) or via LPA (Lasting Power of Attorney). Those appointed via EPA or LPA are called Attorney here.

I have a lot to learn about your legal parlance

But here, a Solicitor (less often called a Lawyer) is the person educated, trained in the law and qualified to practise as a solicitor (or lawyer), and then able to charge £300 per hour (or thereabouts) for their services. And that perhaps would be the 'small cost' equivalent that you mention. It's no small cost here though. It's a big cost -

That rate is no small cost anywhere.

We sometimes can find "legal aide" services which are free to the elderly or based on income ladders.
AA = Attendance Allowance here. (Alternatively, it also stands for Alcoholics Anonymous, but that's less often featured on this particular forum.)

AA = Alzheimer's Association Organization headquartered in Chicago IL.

I strongly dislike acronyms although I use them freely.

I recall a company asking me if I could locate a PA for them. I said sure I know a lot of purchasing agents, no no no, they wanted a Programmer Analyst. <g>

The use of Dementia as a talking point is confusing to me. I have become accustomed to topics being specific to sub sets. I would probably be called to task for using the word Dementia when talking about AD, Alzheimer's Disease.

Candor is appreciated.


DLM
 

Onlyme

Registered User
Apr 5, 2010
4,992
0
UK
The use of Dementia as a talking point is confusing to me. I have become accustomed to topics being specific to sub sets. I would probably be called to task for using the word Dementia when talking about AD, Alzheimer's Disease.

Hi

I can't speak for the rest but I tend to use the term Dementia for Vascular dementia or an unknown dementia that is not AD. The difference over here is that the health system will provide drugs for most with AD disease providing they have a MMSE (Memory test) score of less than 20 and more than 10 after which the drugs are thought to not be working. If someone is diagnosed with just VasD then they are (generally) not provided with drugs. My mother has mixed VasD and dementia so is on medication.
 

POPPY67

Registered User
Mar 5, 2010
211
0
yorkshire
insurance

hello sorry to here you and your family been made to pay but i thinks as someone else as said trying to put the blame on you and your family !! i work in insurance and normally you get new for old not what the value is today so if was 800 when bought would get alike for like replacement ! ps accidents do happen in homes thats why they take out there insurance fot things like this
 

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