I wonder if anyone knew anything about either short term detention orders or compulsory treatment orders. Mum is in hospital under the former (28 day order) and the MHO and consultant think that she will need to stay in hospital longer. Therefore she would need a compulsory treatment order which is a whole different kettle of fish and lasts for 6 months and involves a tribunal deciding on my mum's best interests. This is scaring my dad witless as he is worried that he will lose mum to the system and as he has been her sole, and wonderful, carer for the last couple of years it's proving very worrying for him. He is meeting with the MHO on Wednesday and I wondered if anyone had any experience of these things and what my dad might expect?
Short term detention orders/compulsory treatment orders
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I'm guessing that your Mum and Dad live in Scotland - and if that is so, laws in Scotland are different, so you need responses from people living in your part of the world.
It sounds the same as what in England is called being 'sectioned' under the Mental Health Act. But I may be wrong there.
I have no personal experience of it, because we agreed to a 'voluntary admission' to the assessment unit, but I do understand your Dad's feelings. We (in England) were equally disturbed to discover that our mental health care of older people team - a so-called 'multidisciplinary team' including the social worker on secondment from the regular local authority social services department - could make all and any decisions they chose to make. It was a very uncomfortable experience all round, for the family.
In theory, the professionals are of course supposed to listen to the views of family members and to take those views into their decision-making process, but it's very difficult sometimes to put that theory to good effect.
Once someone comes in touch with social services and/or mental health services for older people, you have in a very big way already handed over control to 'the system'. The decision-maker will always remain the social worker, or the consultant, or similar.
When we were extremely unhappy with a certain decision made by this multidisciplinary team, we were told that if we didn't like it, we would have to take it to court. But, that was in England, and it is not the norm. Sometimes it happens though, and many people are totally unaware of the enormous powers in the hands of social services or similar.
If your compulsory detention/treatment order is anything like the system in England, it requires 'treatment' to be offered for a reason. You can Google the terms, and there are a lot of references and detailed explanations available - all referring to Scotland.
Here's just one: http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2008/09/24090333/5
I'm sure those who have experience of them will be able to advise you, but meanwhile I wish you all the best.
It sounds the same as what in England is called being 'sectioned' under the Mental Health Act. But I may be wrong there.
I have no personal experience of it, because we agreed to a 'voluntary admission' to the assessment unit, but I do understand your Dad's feelings. We (in England) were equally disturbed to discover that our mental health care of older people team - a so-called 'multidisciplinary team' including the social worker on secondment from the regular local authority social services department - could make all and any decisions they chose to make. It was a very uncomfortable experience all round, for the family.
In theory, the professionals are of course supposed to listen to the views of family members and to take those views into their decision-making process, but it's very difficult sometimes to put that theory to good effect.
Once someone comes in touch with social services and/or mental health services for older people, you have in a very big way already handed over control to 'the system'. The decision-maker will always remain the social worker, or the consultant, or similar.
When we were extremely unhappy with a certain decision made by this multidisciplinary team, we were told that if we didn't like it, we would have to take it to court. But, that was in England, and it is not the norm. Sometimes it happens though, and many people are totally unaware of the enormous powers in the hands of social services or similar.
If your compulsory detention/treatment order is anything like the system in England, it requires 'treatment' to be offered for a reason. You can Google the terms, and there are a lot of references and detailed explanations available - all referring to Scotland.
Here's just one: http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2008/09/24090333/5
I'm sure those who have experience of them will be able to advise you, but meanwhile I wish you all the best.
Thankyou for taking the time to reply - and yes, we are in scotland and yes re similarities to 'sectioning.'
Both my dad and I find this quite extraordinary - my mum was initially sectioned for medical needs and the assessment is happening simultaneously with a general view that she will require to be 'held' in hospital for longer than the 28 days, ergo the compulsory treatment order and resultant tribunal. I'm really quite horrified by the process and feel that my parents got almost no support from the system whatsoever, despite my dad's persistence. I think social services in these circumstances, and the medical profession, seem to manage dementia by fire fighting and I really am not convinced that my father is going to be either pleased or impressed by the outcome and even less so that the resultant 'care package' will be the right one for my mum.
I really appreciate the link - thankyou!
Both my dad and I find this quite extraordinary - my mum was initially sectioned for medical needs and the assessment is happening simultaneously with a general view that she will require to be 'held' in hospital for longer than the 28 days, ergo the compulsory treatment order and resultant tribunal. I'm really quite horrified by the process and feel that my parents got almost no support from the system whatsoever, despite my dad's persistence. I think social services in these circumstances, and the medical profession, seem to manage dementia by fire fighting and I really am not convinced that my father is going to be either pleased or impressed by the outcome and even less so that the resultant 'care package' will be the right one for my mum.
I really appreciate the link - thankyou!
KS,
I omitted to mention that we did - eventually - receive an apology from the Director of the Mental Health Care of Older People team for having instructed his social worker to tell us to take it to court if we didn't like the 'team' decision made. But only once I had obtained a copy of the medical and care records, which enabled me to see how much the 'team' had been duplicitous in their dealings and meetings and record-keeping.
They had held a meeting to which family were not invited, and the decision was made by a show of hands at that meeting. There were people present who had never before met our relative, and who had never even met the family, so they knew next-to-nothing about our relative, but still were able to be party to a life-changing decision.
I'm not suggesting that will be the case with you, because at least your tribunal will have legal bod involved, so that should allow you some breathing space. You certainly seem to have a somewhat more fair, just and openly honest system in place than we have here in England.
Do let us know how the meeting goes on Wednesday. I hope you'll be present to help your Dad with it all, if only so that you can understand any need to challenge the outcome and to have your input into the care package.
I omitted to mention that we did - eventually - receive an apology from the Director of the Mental Health Care of Older People team for having instructed his social worker to tell us to take it to court if we didn't like the 'team' decision made. But only once I had obtained a copy of the medical and care records, which enabled me to see how much the 'team' had been duplicitous in their dealings and meetings and record-keeping.
They had held a meeting to which family were not invited, and the decision was made by a show of hands at that meeting. There were people present who had never before met our relative, and who had never even met the family, so they knew next-to-nothing about our relative, but still were able to be party to a life-changing decision.
I'm not suggesting that will be the case with you, because at least your tribunal will have legal bod involved, so that should allow you some breathing space. You certainly seem to have a somewhat more fair, just and openly honest system in place than we have here in England.
Do let us know how the meeting goes on Wednesday. I hope you'll be present to help your Dad with it all, if only so that you can understand any need to challenge the outcome and to have your input into the care package.
Hi there, just to let you know that the meeting was postpone because mum had a couple of TIA's yesterday and dad wants to be with her this afternoon. Big bit of me thinks he is also glad to be avoiding the meeting.
Thanks for the update re. the court situation and I do feel very much that we are now on a path that will lead to responsibility for mum being taken out of our hands and it's a very ominous feeling.
Thanks for the update re. the court situation and I do feel very much that we are now on a path that will lead to responsibility for mum being taken out of our hands and it's a very ominous feeling.
Sorry to hear about the TIAs, KS. Hope things ease again soon.
Stay strong - and don't give in to any nonsense that comes your way whenever the meeting does take place. If you're lucky, it will all run smoothly - as long as you've done your homework first. And make sure you get them to put any suggestions in writing, before you agree to anything, if you've got concerns about them.
Meanwhile, all the best.
Stay strong - and don't give in to any nonsense that comes your way whenever the meeting does take place. If you're lucky, it will all run smoothly - as long as you've done your homework first. And make sure you get them to put any suggestions in writing, before you agree to anything, if you've got concerns about them.
Meanwhile, all the best.
