Mother still deprived of children and grandchildren

[Maisy]

Hi, Just recieved Form 05,06,07,08,09,10,12 from Deprivation of Liberty Team (DoLS). An alcoholic and his girlfriend of 4 years have once again been a huge part of this ruling. My family and that of my Brothers family are to continue to officially be restricted to pre arranged one hour once weekly visits supervised by senior management because Robert and Jill have said that they think we plan to move my Mother to another Home.

I have contacted every agency involved, including the Courts to say that we believe being 27 miles away from the nearest friend or relation is unreasonable on her and everyone concerned, and at a meeting S/S made a comment that geographically my Mother was in the wrong place.

The restrictions are now in place because it has been put in the report that my Mother is at risk of being transferred to another home. We actually did get my Mother assessed by an appropriately qualified person (organised through the correct channels) but as my Mother had had a fall and was unable to walk and had her arm in plaster it was not possible to move her to a Home we had looked at. We totally agreed that we would not want her to go anywhere that was not suitable and supported by all agencies involved at present! At no point have we ever dictated as to which home my Mother should be in. We put in writing that we would be happy for S/S or the courts to chose. We are just sayiny we as next of kin believe she would greatly benefit from having more visitors and spending more quality time with her children and grandchildren as anyone can see how much she loves our visits and likewise visits from others.

Incidentally, although we have comunicated with everyone, taken my Mother out for at least 1 day every week for 6 months (before we were banned by Home for complaining about several serious issues), the only reason the report says that restrictions were placed on us was because Robert and Jill raised these issues and felt they were still a threat to my Mothers best interests!

Can anyone offer any help? As I have now gone over £50,000 on Solicitors fees I can only realistically work at no win no fee terms. I was approached by a fraud invesigator but he wanted £2,500.00 up front and I am not able to afford those services also I had my doubts. I need someone who has experienced similar problems or someone familiar with DoL rules and regulations. As I said I received the forms in the post offering no advice, as to if I could appeal or have any further input. No name of anyone to contact or speak to.
Please no matter how little you can offer if you know anyone who has gone through any similar situation and have an inkling of hope for me please get in touch.

I

 

[Vonny]

Hi Maisie,

I'm sure you have already done this, but in case your haven't here is the number for Age Concern's helpline: 0800 00 99 66.

I'm sorry I don't have any more suggestions. You mentioned in your previous post that your nephew and partner were granted POA in error by the courts and that it would cost £40K to put right. If the courts are in error, why should it cost you anything? I'm just wondering if your solicitor has given you sound advice there...I'm no legal expert by any means but surely the courts should not make errors, and certainly not charge to put things right.

Best of luck

Vonny xx

 

[JPG1]

Maisy,

One thing I would like to ask: how come your Mother was placed in this home in the first place? So far away from family.

Was that down to Jack and Jill?

Another question, if I may: have you contacted Action on Elder Abuse? Or Citizen's Advice Bureau? Or Age Concern/Help the Aged? They all have contacts with legal people who can help, and advise, without incurring any costs at all. (They disguise it as 'advice', but they consult legals.)

And yet another question: you said in an earlier post that it would either cost you £40K or that it would cost your mum £40K to get the problem sorted. If it was an error by the courts, then I don't see why it should cost anyone any £K to put it right.

Just scratching at brain at the moment, so ignore the above if it doesn't fit with you.

Best of luck to you and yours,

.

 

[jenniferpa]

My only (no cost) thought about this is that you should start the Dols procedure again. Normally the first step in this is that someone indicates that another person is being unfairly restricted, and being deprived of their liberty. It would seem to me that that is exactly what is happening here: your mother is being restricted from seeing her family.

 

[Skye]

Maisy, this is another site you could try. They might be able to point you in the right direction.

http://www.firststopcareadvice.org.uk/

 

[JPG1]

Not sure that's so, Jennifer.

The DOLs procedure first step is started normally by someone who is about to deprive A N Other of their liberty. The care home, for instance, or the SW, applies for a DOL order, via the appropriate channels.

Someone who feels that A N Other has been deprived of their liberty can only appeal against a DOL order.

That's the way I've read it anyway.

So I suggest, Maisy that you should appeal against the DOL that has been applied for (and obviously achieved) by whoever. May be the care home? May be the SS?

You should have been involved in this procedure anyway, as a close relative. Regardless of Jack and Jill's involvement in it all.

And an emergency DOL has a very short life-span, so again, find out more from the authorities who gave permission for that DOL.



.

 

[jenniferpa]

Well I can't for some reason, download the standard letters (I suspect the old Mac/PC issue) but it does say "If a person believes that someone is being deprived of their liberty without proper authority, the Act allows for them to ask the hospital or care home to request a standard authorisation. The person can do this by completing Letter 1."

Now it would be my contention that the way this has been done in this case was improper and therefore , the authority was not valid.

I'm not certain, Maisy but since you didn't get a Form 11 (Equivalent Assessments) I believe there was inadequate information and assessments at the outset. I'm by no means saying that would work, but if you haven't tried it, it might be an option. Your other option is to convince them that circumstances have changed - I suspect that this would mean you dropping your objection to the home: if this order was granted on the basis that you wish to move her to another home, if you no longer push that, then there is no longer a reason for the order.

It's all very much speculation though.

 

[JPG1]

This may be what you were looking for, Jennifer, from Southampton as only an example:

http://www.southampton.gov.uk/Images/DOLS Letter 1_tcm46-230328.pdf

But the basics are the same wherever you live in England.

There is another one, that I too can't find at the moment, but it goes beyond the 'unauthorised deprivation of liberty'.

The 'unauthorised' doesn't apply in Maisy's case, because one hopes there is an authorised DOL in place.

.

 

[jenniferpa]

No, I see your point, but my point is that if you could show that the procedure hadn't conformed to the appropriate guidelines, then it may not be "authorized" in the sense of "legal". Just because something has been put in place, doesn't mean it necessarily has been put in place with "proper authority" (misrepresentation and fraud come to mind).

Still, as I said, it's just speculation, and undoubtedly the "easiest" way to get it overturned is to show that circumstances have changed.

 

[JPG1]

Here's a good one:

"MCA DOLS are never used as a form of punishment, or for the convenience of professionals, carers or anyone else."

which comes from South Essex here -

http://www.southessex-trust.nhs.uk/PPI/171.pdf

Good leaflet on MCA DOLs.

It would be worth asking, Maisy, who was the RPR involved (= Relevant Person's Representative).

Because:

The RPR must be over 18, able to keep contact with the person being deprived of their liberty and willing to be appointed.
The RPR has to represent and support the person in all matters, including asking for reviews, complaining if necessary and even going to the Court of Protection if necessary.

Sounds as though Jack and Jill may not be up to the task of being the appointed RPR.

.

 

[Maisy]

Mother still deprived of children

I think I actually started the DOL thing off because I complained to S/S, CSCI, Adult Protection that my Mother was being deprived, by 8 people being banned from seeing my Mother. The Home would not let us see our Mother because I had complained about them to their Care Manager. As I said this complaint was recorded on 2 occasions totalling about 1 hour of conversation. On first raising issues with the Care Manager she agreed with everything I said admitting that my Mother had not been cared for properly. I left it a while hoping things would improve (I believe a few weeks).
When I found my Mother with no underwear, having non to dress her in and being expected to walk her out one cold November morning with no socks, tights and open toed sandals I was very upset. I asked staff for her clothes and was given several peoples 'named' underwear, a 38 size bra and my Mother is now child size! Other peoples pants clearly again absolutely huge.....how would anyone feel?
It was quite clear that I was upset but left the home and took my Mum to my house and got new underwear for her. Luckily she was unaware that she was not dressed properly. I left that home with my Mum dressed in a tee shirt and thin stained summer skirt. I emptied her wardrobe and made one pile of clothes with other peoples names on them. Another pile was of clothes that were filthy. My Mother was unable to open her wardrobe and I knew that dirty clothes were regularly put back in her wardrobe to be worn again.
On one occasion i found my Mum sat in her own mess. When I took her to the bathroom it was clear she had been sat in it for a long time and it was very uncomfortable and sore for her as I tried to clean her up. I pressed the alarm to call someone to help and bring incontinence pads. The staff nurse came and when my daughter said that her grandmother was sat in her own mess and did not have any incontinence pads the nurse said my Mother was not incontinent. We explained that my Mother had been incontinent in hospital for months and in the previous care home.
We showed the nurse the heavily soiled clothes on the floor and she said that we were liars and had made my Mum mess herself. She stormed out of the room leaving us to make my Mum comfortable. This nurse was one of the staff that carried out Robert and Jills instructions to refuse us access to our Mother in the first few months of them taking her to this home.

My Brother and his daughter were sat in a chair in the bedroom whilst we were in the bathroom and were horrified by the behaviour of this woman supposedly making decisions for our Mother. How would you feel leaving your Mum with people as cruel as this.
The following week the doors were locked and I was told I was an abuser and not allowed to see my Mother again. When I asked what I had done no one knew but I was told management had given instructions to inform me that I was an abuser.
Care staff who had been in the room the day I complained said that I had not been rude or abusive, they said they saw how I loved my Mum and they laughed when I said I had been accused of abuse, they thought it was a joke.
I still see the same member of staff today who is lovely towards me and my family.
Management put it in writing that I was an abuser. No one can tell me when I was abusive, to who I was abusive, as to if it was verbal or physical. I have never been given an opportunity to defend myself and S/S, Dol, Elder Abuse, all work with the home. Non have asked me as to what I complained about or what issues I had with the home. I have been told by S/S that no complaint has ever been recorded against the home and that I did not make a complaint. The only reply I got from anyone I put a complaint in to was that the home had put in a complaint about me, but what they complained about has never been mentioned by anyone! I continuously request for my abuse to be explained to me as I know 100% I am innocent as does everyone who knows me.
I spend my days interviewing serial killers, bank robbers, paedophiles. I can assure everyone I am able to be calm in any situation. I am used to ealing one to one with some of the most dangerous people in the country. Non treated as badly as my Mother when put in custody!
At £900 a week with Robert and Jill writing the cheques I think we all know exactly what is happening. We were told that as next of kin we have the right to be involved in our Mothers care, where she lives (making sure any home we find meets all of her needs), and that those with POA (in error)have control of finances. S/S also agreed the only responsibilities POA gives is over finances.
Why in 14 months have the home continually refused to show us a care plan, tell us anything about our Mother. Banned us twice? Refuse to tell us when she is rushed to hospital or becomes ill? Maybe because Robert and Jill have told them to exclude us!
My Mother was taken to a care home on leaving hospital which all next of kin agreed upon.
Suddenly Robert and Jill got paperwork in the post granting them POA. They arrived at the Home threatened staff (all women, strange that these two only threaten females) and insisted my Mother was brought to them so they could take her away. They had not once visited her in the home and only visited about 5 times in all the months she was in hospital.
They waved the POA documents in the managers face and Robert standing 6'3" tall intimidated staff. The owner called me and I said to do what she thought was in my Mothers best interests. I called the Public Guardian and was assured POA had not been given and would not before it was heard before a Judge. They told me to call the Police.
I did but it was too late Robert and Jill had taken my Mother.

The police were good and interviewed shaken staff at the home and eventually found my Mother 27 miles away in Tenbury. I was advised by police to keep away for a few days because the report they had on Robert was that he was behaving in a very threatening and angry way and that they feared for my safety.

Ironic that he put my Mum through all of that and yet we are not allowed to now try and make an organised move with everyone involved looking out for my Mothers best interests! This is where the DOL certainly failed my Mother as I think the history has a strong bearing on this situation but apparently the assessor says they only look at today and are not allowed to get involved in anything that has already happened!

We were told by the OPG that we could have an investigation into any suspicions we raised on the two with POA, usually this cost £400.00 if my memory serves me correct. They said that I had to send the money but it would be refunded along with compensation totalling I think about £1,500.00 for other costs towards Court paperwork.
We put paperwork together, had several meetings with solicitor (remembering this is all at our expense). The investigation comprised of the OPG asking to look at 6 months bank statements. What were they looking for? I could see that all my Mothers bill were baid through direct debit. Hundreds of pounds were spent on shopping, unknown items, camera equipment? Her living expenses had quadrupled overnight but the OPG were satisfied that she ate like an Amazon rugby player and needed to write at least 7 cheques a month some for 3 figure sums. Her large savings account had gone down by £20,000 and yet all the time I helped her it had never been touched only added to. She could no longer survive on her pension and yet managed on a fraction of the amount for years before these two took over.

I paid all of my Mothers bills for years with my cheque book as my Mother had not ever written a cheque and struggled with banking. I shopped for her and my Father (before he passed away), looked after all their house, medical and social needs.

You have to be aware that the OPG according to a radio discussion are short staffed and suffering from lack of funding. Who suffers? Those in my Mothers position!
Because they consider their investigation satisfies everyone that things are fine we have to pay if we want to take the Attorneys (appointed in error)to Court!

To add insult to injury Robert and Jill have put a large photograph on the wall of the care home of themselves enjoying my Mothers money whilst holidaying somewhere exotic - possibly Thailand. They show their face in the home sometimes for an hour after a 3 week break, other times for 20 minutes once in 10 to 14 days!

I hope that answers everyones questions.

My Brother truly believes we will expose these two Attorneys (appointed in error) and strongly feels that eventually they will serve sentences for their dishonesty, fraud and undue pressure put on our Mother. If any Court in the land would give us an opportunity to put our case forward and call them into the witness box our Solicitors have said they would expose their continuous lies.

My Solicitor has written a letter to the Courts explaining his suspicion of the Attorneys spending large amounts of my Mothers money. The reply was brief and to the point.. The Courts do not have control as to what the Donors money is spent on. If we have evidence we should go to police. Police say it is a civil matter and we should go through the Courts - catch 22 situation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Social Services give the best response.........We do not want to get involved!!!

 

[Izzy]

OMG what a situation. I can't offer any advice but just wanted to say I hope you manage to get some help.

 

[Skye]

Oh Maisy, that is a complete horror story. How can it be that no-one can help? Your poor mum is ending her days in misery.

I'm completely at a loss to know where you go from here. Jennifer and JPG1 have given you advice, if you have the strength to keep fighting. And try my link on post 5. I haven't used them, but they're supposed to be helpful.

Would your MP help, or the press? The MP would probably say it's a family matter, but the press might be interested.

Please keep in touch and let us know how you get on.

With love and sympathy,

 

[uselessdaughter]

Deprevation of Assets

Maisy

What a dreadful situation for your Mother and your family. I do not have any real advice but I am sure I remember reading on a previous post where someone was worried that a £5,000 gift to her from her mother to help towards wedding costs could have been counted as Deprevation of Assets. It turned out not to be the case because the gift was given shortly before the need for a nursing home became apparent. However, I guess there are rules about what a person's money can be spent on when it is obvious that any assets are going to be required to pay for care. If this was not the case surely anyone who had POA could spend a person's money on whatever they liked until such a time when assets left meant that the Local Authority had to pay for the care. i.e. my brother and I could take an expensive holiday paid for by our Dad's savings. I'm sure SS would soon step in if we did that and I cannot understand why something similar has not happened in this case with the people concerned apparently buying expensive camera equipment, etc, that your mother would have no use for.

I am sure you solicitors would have thought of this but it is the only other thing I can think of which has not already been mentioned. Hope things get resolved soon.

Linda

 

[ella24]

Hi Maisy

I really feel for you, and have been thinking about how I would deal with the whole situation, which is overwhelming, and I wonder if it's worth just tackling one area at a time to start with? I also wonder if the police and SS are backing off because they are seeing a watering down of issues when it is seen as a whole?

From an outsiders view there are several main issues and whilst they are linked (by you/mum/J&J), they can also be seen as discrete issues - ones that jump out first are:

1. Quality of care in CH
2. POA registered incorrectly
3. potential abuse of power/fraud by POA appointees
4. visiting issues to the CH
5. choice of CH
6. DoL

I think, that once 1 and 2 are cleared up, then the others will start to move too. I'm sure you have already done some of what I'm going to suggest, but by tackling the issues in isolation, you may get more focussed responses from SS/Police/POA etc.

For (1) - have you registered a formal complaint with Care Quality Commission http://www.cqc.org.uk/usingcareservices/socialcare/usingsocialcareservices/abuseandneglect.cfm
If your SW chooses to not be involved that is one thing, but CQC need to investigate and provide an outcome.

For (2) - the POA needs challenging as Jennifer suggested, from a procedural point of view, and to clarify exactly what is going on - I dont understand because I understood that ALL offspring etc HAD to be informed of a POA being registered - and as such there is a period to challenge it. To register without OPG follwoing protocol is a reason to appeal.

For (3) - fraud / abuse of power IS an issue for Police and Elder Abuse, and the Public Guardian office. I think you may need to make an appt with your local police, BUT be very specific about what you want them to investigate.

For (4) - I think this may change following (1) - another way of tackling it though is to try to ask for an advocate service (Age COncern do this) to try to negotiate some better visiting terms in the short term.

For (5) - Again may change following (1) / (2) / (3)

For (6) - I think you need all copies of correspondence about the DoL and how it relates to both your mum (although they may refuse to give you this part) - but also where you are named (you have a right to that at least)

One last thing (and maybe a stab in the dark) - who is named as 'executor' in your mum's will? (if she has one) Although this is not at all linked to POA, it may be useful in proving her 'intent' as to who would manage her affairs...

I have tried to be very practical, so I apologise if it sounds a bit frank - I really do feel for you and hope things can be resolved very quickly

e

 

[JPG1]

Maisy,

I’ve had a look at all the Deprivation of Liberty forms and the ones you say you have received copies of, and I wonder whether you should also ask for the following:

1. Form 04 Request for a Standard Authorisation and section B9 would give the reasons why it was considered that ‘harm’ would be prevented to your Mum by the DoL; sections B13 and B14 would also be revealing, as they deal with ‘relevant persons’
http://www.dh.gov.uk/prod_consum_dh/groups/dh_digitalassets/documents/digitalasset/dh_098223.pdf

It will also show the names, positions and telephone numbers of the managing authority – which presumably is the care home.

(Forms 01 to 03 seem to deal with the Requests for Urgent Authorisation, so if strikes me you should have either 01 to 03, or 04 the standard authorisation form.)

2. Form 11 – should be present!

http://www.dh.gov.uk/prod_consum_dh/groups/dh_digitalassets/documents/digitalasset/dh_098230.pdf

3. You said you have Form 12 - that gives details on page 1 of the ‘supervisory body’ and they are the ones you should contact a.s.a.p.. because they are the ones who have granted the authorisation.

http://www.dh.gov.uk/prod_consum_dh/groups/dh_digitalassets/documents/digitalasset/dh_098231.pdf

4. Have a look at Form 24, 25 – Selection of a Representative http://www.dh.gov.uk/prod_consum_dh/groups/dh_digitalassets/documents/digitalasset/dh_098243.pdf


I haven’t read all the forms in detail, but it strikes me that you are missing a few. And I would contact the ‘supervisory body’ to ask for the 'full set'.

.

 

[izzie]

O God, O God.

How horific for you. I am amased you are still standing.

You are doing your best, you cant do any more. I hope someone out there can help, advise and see you through.

Good luck now, good luck. xxx

 

[jenniferpa]

izzie - be aware that this is an fairly old thread.

 

[nocturne]

Have just seen this thread and am astonished that your problems are still continuing. I thought that the DOL procedure should have resulted in meetings at which you would be present and able to air your concerns. You should have been interviewed by an independant social worker who is there to assess your mother's best interests. If you voiced your suspicions re Robert and Jill, I would have expected that an independant mental capacity advocate would have been appointed to be your mother's representative instead of them.
I am not sure that going through the legal process with solicitors is always the best way forward. Sometimes it seems to slow things up. In my area we have a wonderful organisation called Cloverleaf which will represent carers and elderly people who need an independant person to speak for them. I checked for Worcestershire and found this

www.onside-advocacy.org.uk

Might be worth trying them if you have not already done so. It seems to be a free service.

Jan

 

[jenniferpa]

Jan - I'm not sure they necessarily are (still continuing that is). This is a 2009 thread that has just received a new post, rather than containing new information about the situation.

P.S. Maisy hasn't actually logged in since January of this year.