Worried about the house !

[Pepper&Spice]

Hi All,
I am sure that some of you have been in a similar position so i would like an idea of how you handled it please ?
My mum has had a sudden decline and now is in middle stage Vascular dementia. I had booked her into respite some weeks ago to give us and her a break before Christmas. The last few weeks before she went in she was struggling with everything and it was a miracle we actually got her there but the home has also been struggling and so I have asked for a reassessment from SS.
Apart from concerns over mum and her welfare ( I believe she now needs 24hr care and am upset as this really means a CH - something I promised mum i would never do but as she believes she is in care even when she's at home I'm hoping mum wont be upset)
My other concern is money !!
Her savings have now dropped to the point where SS are needed and I know they have a limit of expenditure. i expected her savings to disappear but my concern is the house.
Mum owns the house but I have never left home, for financial reasons and because mum and I were best mates and I expected to gradually take over housework etc for her. I still cannot afford to leave, despite working full time, but the house is in mum's name and so will be considered an asset. i know they cannot make me homeless but it's also possible they can take the money out of mum's estate on her death - which will probably mean selling the house as I'm unlikely to get a mortgage at my age (47) How do I convince SS that the house had always been my home and that I have contributed to the upkeep though i have no legal right to the property. Mum has left me the house in her will as, although i have sisters, she was worried that i would be made homeless on her death ( my sisters have homes and families).
My partner has moved in to help me with things but he is in the process of a messy divorce and his old house has subsidance so is unable to contribute financially either. My sisters are unlikely to help ( barely speak) and I am just worried about my future on top of worrying about mum and her welfare.
Any ideas most welcome - I don't want to sign anything or say anything that will make this worse

 

[Nickydonut]

Sorry to hear about your circumstances, unfortunately if you are notnamed as the house owner i dont think you have a leg to stand on, but im hoping you are able to fight for it, the only blessing is you get to choose the care home if the house money is used for self funding.
the whole situation is a nightmare i hope you manage to stay there but i think its highly unlikely x

 

[Cloverland]

I'm putting some links on here, which I believe answer many of your questions and gives accurate advice. Have you applied for attendance allowance or PIP for your mum, if she has a diagnosis and received one of the above, you may be entitled to council tax relief. Also think about claiming for chc funding. There is a document often referred to on here as CRAG, there are many parts to it.

You may not qualify but have nothing to lose by trying.

http://www.alzheimers.org.uk/site/scripts/documents_info.php?documentID=154

http://www.ageuk.org.uk/Documents/E...rmanent_care_home_provision_fcs.pdf?dtrk=true

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/372545/dwp027-102014.pdf

http://www.ageuk.org.uk/Documents/E..._permanent_residential_care_fcs.pdf?dtrk=true

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...chment_data/file/328377/NHS_CHC_easy_read.pdf

 

[WILLIAMR]

Hi All,
I am sure that some of you have been in a similar position so i would like an idea of how you handled it please ?
My mum has had a sudden decline and now is in middle stage Vascular dementia. I had booked her into respite some weeks ago to give us and her a break before Christmas. The last few weeks before she went in she was struggling with everything and it was a miracle we actually got her there but the home has also been struggling and so I have asked for a reassessment from SS.
Apart from concerns over mum and her welfare ( I believe she now needs 24hr care and am upset as this really means a CH - something I promised mum i would never do but as she believes she is in care even when she's at home I'm hoping mum wont be upset)
My other concern is money !!
Her savings have now dropped to the point where SS are needed and I know they have a limit of expenditure. i expected her savings to disappear but my concern is the house.
Mum owns the house but I have never left home, for financial reasons and because mum and I were best mates and I expected to gradually take over housework etc for her. I still cannot afford to leave, despite working full time, but the house is in mum's name and so will be considered an asset. i know they cannot make me homeless but it's also possible they can take the money out of mum's estate on her death - which will probably mean selling the house as I'm unlikely to get a mortgage at my age (47) How do I convince SS that the house had always been my home and that I have contributed to the upkeep though i have no legal right to the property. Mum has left me the house in her will as, although i have sisters, she was worried that i would be made homeless on her death ( my sisters have homes and families).
My partner has moved in to help me with things but he is in the process of a messy divorce and his old house has subsidance so is unable to contribute financially either. My sisters are unlikely to help ( barely speak) and I am just worried about my future on top of worrying about mum and her welfare.
Any ideas most welcome - I don't want to sign anything or say anything that will make this worse

Hi Pepper&Spice

LA's are not allowed to leave you homeless if that is any consolation.
You could however find yourself being offered a 1 bedroom council flat.

Sometimes LA's will allow the offspring to stay but put a charge on the property and recover the money when the offspring leaves.

If you were your mother's carer LA'S have discretion to disregard the property but may not do so.

One case I know of the LA pressed for an immediate sale and the mother was only expected to last 6 months at the most which did not make much sense.
She died a week later on the way to the care home.

William

 

[Cloverland]

My partner has moved in to help me with things but he is in the process of a messy divorce and his old house has subsidance so is unable to contribute financially either. My sisters are unlikely to help ( barely speak) and I am just worried about my future on top of worrying about mum and her welfare.
Any ideas most welcome - I don't want to sign anything or say anything that will make this worse

I have just re-read your post and I know I put links for you to look at but having read CRAG, you mention your partner is moving in to help you, under CRAG someone giving up their home to move in to help means the LA has to disregard the property. Your partner although going through a divorce has chosen to give up his home, might be a technicality but CRAG doesn't mention that.

Below copied from CRAG itself (don't mention subsidence)

Discretion to disregard property
7.011 Where the LA considers it reasonable to do so, they can disregard the value of premises not covered in paragraphs 7.002 to 7.008 in which a third party lives. LAs will have to balance the use of this discretion with the need to ensure that residents with assets are not maintained at public expense. It may be reasonable, for example, to disregard a dwelling's value where it is the sole residence of someone who has given up their own home in order to care for the resident, or someone who is an elderly companion of the resident, particularly if they have given up their own home. These are only examples and not exhaustive.

Example
A close friend gives up their own home to care for the resident at a time when the need for residential care cannot be anticipated. This would be reasonable circumstances for the LA to give consideration to the exercise of discretion.

7.013 Where the LA has decided to disregard the value of a property, it is left to the LA to decide if and when to review that decision. It would be reasonable, for example, where the LA has been ignoring the value of a property because a long-term carer was living there, for the LA to begin taking account of the value of the property when the carer dies or moves out.

 

[garnuft]

Crag doesn't state that moving in to help someone means the house is disregarded.

'LAs will have to balance the use of this discretion with the need to ensure that residents with assets are not maintained at public expense'.

'these are only an example and not exhaustive'.

Having a partner living there who owns a property would not be a positive in any assessment, in my opinion.

I would also worry about siblings contesting the will.

I would pursue the right to live in the property until it's sold.

 

[Pete R]

I have just re-read your post and I know I put links for you to look at but having read CRAG, you mention your partner is moving in to help you, under CRAG someone giving up their home to move in to help means the LA has to disregard the property. Your partner although going through a divorce has chosen to give up his home, might be a technicality but CRAG doesn't mention that.

Cloverland, I believe you are way off the mark there with regard to the "partner" giving up their home. There has to be some connection with that person providing care over a number of years and not just because they are going through a divorce.

I do believe however that because P&S has lived in the home all their life there is a case for a discretionary disregard but is by no means definite.

 

[Cloverland]

Crag doesn't state that moving in to help someone means the house is disregarded.

'LAs will have to balance the use of this discretion with the need to ensure that residents with assets are not maintained at public expense'.

'these are only an example and not exhaustive'.

Having a partner living there who owns a property would not be a positive in any assessment, in my opinion.

I would also worry about siblings contesting the will.

I would pursue the right to live in the property until it's sold.

I realise its the LAs discretion but so often if you can show a reasonable reason the LAs can and do back down. CRAG does clearly state about a person giving up their home and I paste again, as you say it is your opinion. I'm trying to show that all doesn't have to lost and by fighting your corner can be a good thing.

It may be reasonable, for example, to disregard a dwelling's value where it is the sole residence of someone who has given up their own home in order to care for the resident, or someone who is an elderly companion of the resident, particularly if they have given up their own home.


If the will was made some years ago and not recently, I don't see how the sisters could contest the will. Reading Pepper and Spice original post I read that the will was done some years ago because she lives at home. A friends mum did the same thing some years ago for the same reasons, her brother didn't contest the will. I think this is just adding more worry where there probably isn't a need.

WilliamR stated you can live in the house, the LA could place a charge so when house is sold they receive their money. CRAG is full of guidelines, so until you speak with your actual LA you won't know what they would do, but is worth knowing about CRAG guidelines. Guidelines are always open for interpretation.

 

[jenniferpa]

I agree with Gwen and Pete: there is no "has" to about the LA disregarding a home when someone has given up their own home in order to provide care, let alone moving in to provide care when they still own another home no matter what the state of that home. In fact, my reading of CRAG is that owning such another home would automatically be a reason for the disregard to be non-applicable.

Having said that, if you have always lived in the home, there is be a case to be made that the home should be disregarded, but it's by no means certain I'm afraid.

 

[Cloverland]

Cloverland, I believe you are way off the mark there with regard to the "partner" giving up their home. There has to be some connection with that person providing care over a number of years and not just because they are going through a divorce.

I do believe however that because P&S has lived in the home all their life there is a case for a discretionary disregard but is by no means definite.[/quote

I put the info there to give P&S information re her situation, hence actually pasting from CRAG, how we all interpret that information is precisely why there are so many differing opinions. I did it to try and help not to cause further issues.

As always on TP it is usually only ever opinions especially when dealing with such important matters which is why I paste links to reputable sites and not just anywhere.

 

[garnuft]

But, as always with legal things, the wording matters and you stated that the LA 'has' to disregard ...when in fact that's not the case.

 

[Cloverland]

But, as always with legal things, the wording matters and you stated that the LA 'has' to disregard ...when in fact that's not the case.

This should have read - 'surely the LA has to disregard'. Not the first person to have a typo and won't be the last. I will make sure I check my replies or posts in future for typos

 

[garnuft]

Cloverland.
There is no 'surely'. That is the point.

 

[Pete R]

Cloverland,

Your posting of the links are most helpful.

I have done a quick search on here and cannot find one thread where a discretionary disregard has been successful.

I gave up my home 11 years ago to care for my mom who has just gone into a NH. The LA have rejected my application so I very much doubt if someone going through a divorce who has done NO caring and has another house will affect any decision.

I am still awaiting to find out if they will enter into a deferred payment scheme (although likely, not a certainty) but even if they do it will still mean the house has to be eventually sold.

 

[Cloverland]

Cloverland,

Your posting of the links are most helpful.

I have done a quick search on here and cannot find one thread where a discretionary disregard has been successful.

I gave up my home 11 years ago to care for my mom who has just gone into a NH. The LA have rejected my application so I very much doubt if someone going through a divorce who has done NO caring and has another house will affect any decision.

I am still awaiting to find out if they will enter into a deferred payment scheme (although likely, not a certainty) but even if they do it will still mean the house has to be eventually sold.

Thank you Pete R a useful and polite reply. Going through a divorce was mentioned in original post that's the only reason I commented on it, sometimes the written word is not conveyed the same as if said. I am not the enemy here

I hope you are successful with the deferred payment scheme, such a shame when in all innocence people's hard earned savings are gradually diminished.

 

[Saffie]

It may be reasonable, for example, to disregard a dwelling's value where it is the sole residence of someone who has given up their own home in order to care for the resident, or someone who is an elderly companion of the resident, particularly if they have given up their own home.

That, however, is not the quote you referred to as in -

you mention your partner is moving in to help you, under CRAG someone giving up their home to move in to help means the LA has to disregard the property. Your partner although going through a divorce has chosen to give up his home, might be a technicality but CRAG doesn't mention that.

 

[Pepper&Spice]

Thank you everyone for your imput and advice. As you can see and as I have found from contacting solicitors, Age UK, Carers UK and Alz Soc there is no clear answer here to my dilema. The solicitor has assured me that they cannot force me to leave or to sell my home ( despite mum owning it). Currently the financial assessment is with the LA and I enclosed a typed statement with the information that the form would not allow me to include which states that this is my family home which I have never left and that I have gradually took over a caring role with my mother for some years prior to the development of her Dementia, including house maintenance and have contributed financially to the upkeep of the house. I have then asked for a discretionary disregard on this basis. I know I will be lucky if this goes in my favour but I am also, as Jennifer is aware, having a battle over LA care home rates which are set ridiculously low. (Possible solution on the horizon - keeping everything crossed !)
I think the info on my partner won't help my case and is really none of their business but as I work for the LA myself (in another capacity but it never hurts being on the inside) I know that sometimes you have to give a little to get what you want or a compromise
I must admit I find all the constant battles exhausting - the Dementia is a huge battle on it's own without all the added stress - poor mum, at least she is oblivious to all this and is being well looked after and she has come back further than I expected after a UTI and chest infection so that is giving me an emotional boost that I have been lacking lately.
So despite the fact that I don't have any financial security for the future I feel a little less worried about it and if I end up in broke they will have to fund my care when I need it
Thank you again everyone - and be careful out there ! (Hill Street Blues)