PoA should it be this tricky.

[bemused1]

Very simple and staightforward, I've filled the forms in myself. Then I talk to the doctor, can you be the certificate provider-'isn't there anyone else' ' a solicitor should be drawing it up' ' if I do it I will have to come out and assess him- oh and there's the door, bye'

So I spoke to the solictor today-' I can only do it if I have a doctors letter to say he is competent,they are only meant to be done by people who are fully competent.'

Is it me?- I thought it was a simple thing and as long as they were competent at the time of signing that was all that was required.WHY IS IT BEING MADE SO STRESSFUL I want to scream!!!

 

[jan.s]

I'm sorry you've hit all these problems. I asked friends to sign my husband's forms, people who knew him socially. Much eaier!

Good luck.

 

[bemused1]

I'm sorry you've hit all these problems. I asked friends to sign my husband's forms, people who knew him socially. Much eaier!

Good luck.

It would be but like so many other people friends have kind of disappeared and it can't be family. I just don't understand why the doctor and solicitor are being so difficult- I have spoken to the OPG and the message is completely different.

Because from what so many people on here are saying if its a friend they are qualified to say whether the person is of sound mind but if its a solicitor they are not qualified unless a doctor says so.Perhaps I should ask the postman- he's known us both for years!!

 

[jaymor]

My husband's was drawn up by a solicitor. The solicitor asked him questions to ascertain whether he understood what he was doing. The fact that he would not remember 10 minutes later did not matter. He answered all her questions and showed he understood so that was it. Simple. Infact I did one at the same time. Hope I never need it but a bit like insurance, comforting to know it is there should I need it. Our two children plus me will administer my husband's and our two children will administer mine.

Jay

 

[kingmidas1962]

I was lucky enough to have an understanding family GP who was happy to sign it BUT on the OPG website, in the guidance booklet - specifically for people who are to be certificate providers, it says:-

The detail:
A certificate provider is someone who you choose, who can confirm that you
• understand your LPA
• have not been put under pressure to make it and that it has not been completed fraudulently.

This is an important safety aspect of your LPA.

Who can be a certificate provider?
Either someone who
•has known you for at least two years
or
•has relevant skill or knowledge to be able to form a professional judgement about your understanding.

As silly as it sounds if the postman does know you really well, and is happy to confirm that your husband understands the POA and that he is not being pressurised into it (and thats the important bit) can he NOT sign it as a shared acquaintance? Does he fall into the 'person who has known you for at least two years' category?

The guidance goes on to say that:-

If you choose someone with relevant professional skills, they must be one of the following:
•a registered healthcare professional (your doctor for example)
•a solicitor, barrister, or advocate
•a registered social worker
•an Independent Mental Capacity Advocate (IMCA)
•someone who considers that they have the relevant professional skills and can specify what they are

So why on earth the doctor is being so obstructive I have no idea. Can (s)he not assess your husband? If not, why not (given that assessments are part of the job)?

Its quite hard enough as it is, isn't it? They can be drawn up by a solicitor but its not compulsory - I did my dads myself.

 

[Norfolkgirl]

My husband's was drawn up by a solicitor. The solicitor asked him questions to ascertain whether he understood what he was doing. The fact that he would not remember 10 minutes later did not matter. He answered all her questions and showed he understood so that was it. Simple. Infact I did one at the same time. Hope I never need it but a bit like insurance, comforting to know it is there should I need it. Our two children plus me will administer my husband's and our two children will administer mine.

Jay

But how can you distinguish from the donor really "understanding" and the donor just SAYING yes they "understand" but suffers confabulation which would mean they don't REALLY understand, just saying it for the sake of it! Did the solicitor take this into account?

 

[Moonflower]

I think people can be reluctant to sign because they are afraid that if anyone challenged the PoA they could be in trouble for saying that the donor had capacity to sign if they didn't really.

It depends on whether the donor really does have capacity or not - if they do, and it's absolutely clear that they understand what they are agreeing to, then a solicitor should be happy to sign, as should a gp. On the other hand once someone has dementia, whether or not they have capacity can be more debatable. In which case it is understandable that a professional could be reluctant to commit themselves

My mother's gp refused to sign, her psychogeriatrician was very helpful and did so.

 

[Moonflower]

But how can you distinguish from the donor really "understanding" and the donor just SAYING yes they "understand" but suffers confabulation which would mean they don't REALLY understand, just saying it for the sake of it! Did the solicitor take this into account?

I think they ask questions to draw this out - have you signed any papers recently? Can you explain to me what they were for? Mum's doctor said that understanding "in the moment" wasn't enough and there had to be some ability to retain awareness of what she had agreed to.
Her solicitor said they would assess capacity as follows:
Could she select a hobby, use the yellow pages to find a group of people sharing that hobby, or a relevant shop, order a taxi and get herself there. That's been beyond mum for many many years!

 

[jaymor]

But how can you distinguish from the donor really "understanding" and the donor just SAYING yes they "understand" but suffers confabulation which would mean they don't REALLY understand, just saying it for the sake of it! Did the solicitor take this into account?

The solicitor was very careful with her questions and my husband was in the very early stage of dementia and was still working.

Questions were along the lines of, Do you know why you are here?
Husband's answer 'Yes, we want to make sure that we legally have someone to manage our affairs if we can no longer do it for ourselves.

Who would you like to do this for you?

My wife.

Solicitor, More than one person would be better.
Husband, Then both our son and daughter, don't want any falling out.

The solicitor and the witness as well as us were more than sure he knew what he was doing. As I said mine was done at the same time. For me it was insurance and doing one for both of us made it less like his disease making it necessary.

Jay

 

[bemused1]

Thank you to everyone who contributed to this thread, I now know that an awful lot of people know the same as me and that neither the doctor or the solicitor were prepared to be helpful for some reason I don't understand and they were not going to be persuaded otherwise. I can only assume they have done either no PoAs at all or only for people who are so well informed (or in possession of crystal balls) that they draw up PoAs long before there is any question about their mental capacity. It didn't even enter my knowledge base until my husband began to show signs of dementia and thanks to the many professionals who do know what they are talking about who gave me the information. I don't think I am alone in that!

Which still leaves the question of who to get to sign.The postman was actually a joke he doesn't know us that well but quite honestly what would be the difference? Oddly enough I have more faith in him than the professionals I've had to deal with- he's helpful, pleasant , knows what he is doing and doesn't go about making life any harder than it is. Long live postmen!

 

[jaymor]

Thank you to everyone who contributed to this thread, I now know that an awful lot of people know the same as me and that neither the doctor or the solicitor were prepared to be helpful for some reason I don't understand and they were not going to be persuaded otherwise. I can only assume they have done either no PoAs at all or only for people who are so well informed (or in possession of crystal balls) that they draw up PoAs long before there is any question about their mental capacity. It didn't even enter my knowledge base until my husband began to show signs of dementia and thanks to the many professionals who do know what they are talking about who gave me the information. I don't think I am alone in that!

Which still leaves the question of who to get to sign.The postman was actually a joke he doesn't know us that well but quite honestly what would be the difference? Oddly enough I have more faith in him than the professionals I've had to deal with- he's helpful, pleasant , knows what he is doing and doesn't go about making life any harder than it is. Long live postmen!

Do you believe your husband has the mental capacity to understand what he would be signing? If you do then try another solicitor. Every solicitor can't be the same as the one you tried.

When my husband was diagnosed his consultant told us he had alzheimers and then went on to tell us everything we needed to do. She told us to do POA, make sure our wills were up to date and advise the DVLA of the diagnosis then go off and get on with our lives with all eventualities covered. Life was not going to stop there and then and she was right. It obviously was very good advice and given at the right time.

Jay

 

[kingmidas1962]

I thought the postman comment was tongue in cheek ... and then I thought, well, actually ....is that such a daft idea???!!!

 

[oneloopylady]

Such a shame you have all these problems thrown at you. My fathers consultant was amazing, and reading your problems, I realise how lucky I was. I asked him if my dad was competent to sign, and he actually went to the ward to talk to my dad, told my dad that he thought it was a good idea to give me POA and then told me to get a solicitor in. I did get a solicitor who specialises in elderly care (a member of Solicitors for the Elderly, an independent national organisation of lawyers committed to providing the highest quality of legal advice for elderly people) and she came, talked to my dad and got him to sign. In fact, she was booked to come one day and I rang her and said he had an infection and was in a really bad way mentally and would definitely not know what he was doing and she said wait until he is having a good day and I will come and talk to him.

Might be worth trying to find one such person? They obviously understand that dementia affects different people differently at different times and no two days/hours/minutes are the same - unlike the average GP!!

Good luck!
Trisha

 

[sleith]

Poa

Thank you to everyone who contributed to this thread, I now know that an awful lot of people know the same as me and that neither the doctor or the solicitor were prepared to be helpful for some reason I don't understand and they were not going to be persuaded otherwise. I can only assume they have done either no PoAs at all or only for people who are so well informed (or in possession of crystal balls) that they draw up PoAs long before there is any question about their mental capacity. It didn't even enter my knowledge base until my husband began to show signs of dementia and thanks to the many professionals who do know what they are talking about who gave me the information. I don't think I am alone in that!

Which still leaves the question of who to get to sign.The postman was actually a joke he doesn't know us that well but quite honestly what would be the difference? Oddly enough I have more faith in him than the professionals I've had to deal with- he's helpful, pleasant , knows what he is doing and doesn't go about making life any harder than it is. Long live postmen!

Hi bemused 1

I had this problem the doctor and solicitors need to be paid.

When I asked the doctor he wanted me to go though the solicitor which I paid.

The doctor wanted £150 to go to dad to assess him

So it is all about money.Unless you have a good doctor.That will do it for you.

The other posts are right any one that has known the person for more than two years

including neighbours and have had contact and conversations will do.

Good Luck

sleith

 

[starryuk]

Oh dear, it is so difficult isn't it? I, too, have been tearing my hair out for weeks. We asked a friend of mine who has known my mother for many years. She now visits my mum every week and takes her out for coffee etc. I hope this will be acceptable!

Good luck with it. It will be a great relief once it is in the post!

Angela

 

[Norfolkgirl]

I think they ask questions to draw this out - have you signed any papers recently? Can you explain to me what they were for? Mum's doctor said that understanding "in the moment" wasn't enough and there had to be some ability to retain awareness of what she had agreed to.
Her solicitor said they would assess capacity as follows:
Could she select a hobby, use the yellow pages to find a group of people sharing that hobby, or a relevant shop, order a taxi and get herself there. That's been beyond mum for many many years!

Oh my word! None of those things my mother could do but Social Services deem her as having mental capacity to manage her financial affairs! Even though one could "seem" to have a reasonable conversation with her only until one delves deeper and subsequently finds discrepancies in her answers which can often change each time the same question is asked.

I also agree, "in the moment" shouldn't be enough and unfortunately this will be how many solicitors can get away with rather a lot, if no-one suspects!

 

[Moonflower]

The trouble is, PoA is a powerful legal document and it's understandable that if capacity is in doubt, professionals will be wary of certifying that someone has capacity - particularly when there could be a hornets nest of angry relatives over the horizon who could challenge the certification.

The requirements of Mum's solicitor seemed onerous, her GP refused to certify because mum had an alzheimer's diagnosis, which she felt was enough to make capacity doubtful. We were lucky that her psychogeriatrician was so helpful.

The answer, I suppose, is to sort out a PoA when you are fit and healthy and your capacity is in no doubt. As soon as my youngest child turns 18 hubby and I will do ours - but that's with the benefit of hindsight - I would never have thought of it before I went through the process with mum and I suspect many others are in a similar position.

 

[Norfolkgirl]

The trouble is, PoA is a powerful legal document and it's understandable that if capacity is in doubt, professionals will be wary of certifying that someone has capacity - particularly when there could be a hornets nest of angry relatives over the horizon who could challenge the certification.

Another "problem" that can easily be overlooked is that it is not compulsory for the donor to notify other family/relatives! and because they are not named, they cannot object or challenge the certification. In my case, this has happened whereby the attorneys deliberately missed me off being an alternative attorney/notify me of the application which the donor would normally include, because the attorneys were financially abusing the donor and knew I suspected them (one of them a retired solicitor relative of the donor!). They got away with it and the donor would not have a clue what's going on and incapable of verifying the forms. The donor thinks I am also one of the attorneys and there would be no reason why I wouldn't be. She was putty in their hands because of her dementia.

 

[bemused1]

it seems to me that this is something of a cleft stick. But what doesn't make any sense to me is why anyone can say they have known you 2 years and that is acceptable, but a professional will make you jump through hoops.

And yes it would be really good if we all did this before we were in any way deemed not to have capacity but an awful lot of us are not that well informed and the first time it is mentioned is when someone tells you it would be a good idea.For instance I have told my 50year old stepdaughter to do this now, but her reply is just- there's plenty of time and I don't have any problems in my family.

I had reason to go to professionals- my husband has two estranged children and I didn't want any possibility of a problem, strangely enough I have enough to deal with already. Neither our doctor or the solicitor know this so that wasn't their reason for objection.

Tomorrow I will talk to the opg again because they seem to be the only people who know whats going on. I just want to get this done now before it is too late in the most secure way possible.

 

[Rooley]

i had a similar situation in as much that Mum signed the papers in January, but the Doctor wouldn't on the basis that they didn't believe Mum had the capacity to understand what she was signing.

So, no PoA for us because as someone else has already said, all of her friends are either long gone, or just no longer in touch.

We are now going through the Deputyship route