What are the legal implications of removing my schizophrenic mother out of a care home, and taking her home?

[EricJones]

Hope I'm in the right forum.

My mother is 78 and has suffered with schizophrenia for most of her life. I looked after her for many years, then my sister took over, but after a few years put her into a care home without my knowledge - had I known, I would have looked after her. She is very unhappy, and I would like to take her home, but I have no idea what the legal implications are. Can my mother be removed from my care, after I have rescued her from her awful care home? I've tried talking to her social worker, but am getting nowhere. Despite saying I would be informed about decisions regarding my mother's care, I didn't hear from her, and she was moved to an even worse care home. I really don't know what to do. There was no POA in place of any sort, no family member has one. I don't know what legal "safeguards" are in place to keep her in her new care home. How much legal trouble can I get into, if I simply brought her home?

 

[nitram]

I don't know what legal "safeguards" are in place to keep her in her new care home.

Assuming she lacks capacity

Deprivation of Liberty Safeguards (DoLS) at a glance - SCIE

www.scie.org.uk

How much legal trouble can I get into, if I simply brought her home?

If she is subject to a DoLS you would be acting in contempt of court and potentially in big trouble

Ask home about capacity and DoLS


Also the LA have ultimate duty of care to a vulnerable person and must ensure any action is in her best interests,

 

[Gosling]

Hello and welcome @EricJones to this friendly and supportive community.
You have already received sound advice and thoughtful suggestions which I cannot really add to.

 

[SAP]

@nitram has given you the best and most concise answer. If you need further support for this you can call the dementia help line

Contact us

Find out how to get in touch with Alzheimer's Society by phone, email, post or online.

www.alzheimers.org.uk

Or

Mind helplines

Find information about our Infoline and Legal line. Contact numbers and opening hours are listed. Also key information including confidentiality and access.

www.mind.org.uk

 

[canary]

Social Services usually takes the attitude that everyone is better off in their own home and it takes a lot to get them to agree to residential care, especially when the person doesn't want to go. Normally SS are only willing to override their wishes if they are demonstrably "at risk of harm or causing harm to others". It is almost impossible to simply "dump" someone in a care home.

Do you know what triggered the move into residential care? Do you know what her current needs are? As you are on a dementia site I am assuming that she also has dementia, which I would have thought would make quite a combination. Is she resistant to having a wash and changing her clothes? Is she incontinent? Does she sundown? Is there aggression/violence or self harm? Does she get distressing hallucinations? You would need to know the answers to all of these questions and be able to demonstrate how you would meet all of her needs.

Why are you saying that the care home is so terrible? Is it because the decor is shabby and there aren't things like a bistro, cinema or spa on site? Is it because of the way your mum is describing it? Or is it because you yourself have witnessed poor care? The care home my mum lived in looked shabby and old fashioned and didn't have any bells and whistles, but the care was wonderful

 

[EricJones]

@nitram
Crikey. Thank you for the warning. I'll ask, but if there isn't a DoLS, what can they do if I brought her home?

There are multiple issues with the care home, and it does sound as though no progress has been made by the care worker, and long continuous pressure will need to be applied in order to make minimal changes which won't improve her experience of living there any better. Firstly there's the doorbell to the care home, which for some reason has been tied into the same system which residents use to call for help, via a button pad next to their bed. Why on earth has a call for help from a resident been combined with the doorbell? How on earth are the nurses supposed to discern one from the other? It's the same "BING BONG!" noise for a potentially life threatening situation and a request for entry. The nurses answer neither category of call anyway, and the alarm units sound continuously day and night, keeping my mother awake. There's one in every corridor, and they all go off at once, once they start they never get switched off. They sounded for the entire 6 hours I was there. Moving her to another room will have little reduction effect on this highly antisocial loud and continuous noise, because there are huge gaps under every door. The doors are transparent to the noise. The only escape from this godawful din is to leave the care home.

While I was there, a nurse dropped one of my mother's pills and it rolled under the dining table - I had to point a pocket torch under the table to help him find it, and he promptly administered it to my mother when he did. Hardly hygienic.

My mother is verbally abused every day by another resident when they sit down for breakfast, lunch and dinner... because they always place the abusive resident directly next to her. She screamed abuse at my mother and threw a drink at her, while I was watching. I recorded audio and can prove that happened. One of the other residents told me that happens every day, and she can't understand why the abusive resident is placed at the same table next to my mother and everyone else, every mealtime. The care manager denied the abuse ever happens. Quite honestly, it was touch and go the other day, I almost took her home.

What effect could contacting the care home directors have? They would likely deny abuse happened too. I suppose they could "Look into" hiring a receptionist, instead of combining a critical call for help with the doorbell, but I expect they are trying t o keep their operating costs down.

I've started a complaint about the care worker, she may not ever speak to me again. She also objected about my recording all of our phone conversations, like the care services do mine. I'll go to the Ombudsman if I have to, for all the good that would do. The care worker selected this care home with no input from me, this awful care home in the wrong city 100 miles away from my home.

 

[My Mum's Daughter]

I would be highly surprised if there's no DoLS in place.

 

[EricJones]

Social Services usually takes the attitude that everyone is better off in their own home and it takes a lot to get them to agree to residential care, especially when the person doesn't want to go. Normally SS are only willing to override their wishes if they are demonstrably "at risk of harm or causing harm to others". It is almost impossible to simply "dump" someone in a care home.

Do you know what triggered the move into residential care? Do you know what her current needs are? As you are on a dementia site I am assuming that she also has dementia, which I would have thought would make quite a combination. Is she resistant to having a wash and changing her clothes? Is she incontinent? Does she sundown? Is there aggression/violence or self harm? Does she get distressing hallucinations? You would need to know the answers to all of these questions and be able to demonstrate how you would meet all of her needs.

Why are you saying that the care home is so terrible? Is it because the decor is shabby and there aren't things like a bistro, cinema or spa on site? Is it because of the way your mum is describing it? Or is it because you yourself have witnessed poor care? The care home my mum lived in looked shabby and old fashioned and didn't have any bells and whistles, but the care was wonderful

I don't think she has dementia, but I haven't had any access to information about whatever her current medical conditions are, beyond diabetes and schizophrenia, so at this point can't be sure.

What triggered her being dumped into residential care, was my sister's desire to move further into a cult. They colluded with her to make that move happen, lied their hides off... and the cult situation is quite another matter entirely. I can't get into that at all here.

I'm well used to all of her behaviours, having looked after her since I was 16 years of age. She was at risk of harm to herself at one stage, but that was when she was being violently abused by my father, who I eventually got rid of, so that my younger siblings could live a better life. The custody case was quite intense, but they awarded custody of my younger siblings to my mother thank goodness. She's never been violent to anyone else. Hallucinations? Of course. She's schizophrenic.

 

[EricJones]

I would be highly surprised if there's no DoLS in place.

Who do I ask? The care worker? Unsure if she'd speak to me. She suggested that if i made a complaint, she would cease communicating. She did little communicating with me anyway - I didn't hear from her for months, and suddenly my mother was moved to a new care home. It was tough tracking my mother down to a mental hospital, because the previous care home wouldn't tell me where my mother was for weeks. I feared she had died. It was only after three weeks of stonewalling from the care home that the care home manager returned my call, and the only reason she did, is because I made a complaint to the Care Quality Commission. But all she knew was that they took her to A&E and left her there... I eventually tracked her down to her mental hospital (there were three to try). It's wrong that a family member should have so much trouble trying to find his own mother!

 

[My Mum's Daughter]

Who do I ask? The care worker? Unsure if she'd speak to me.

Social Services organised Mum's.

 

[Kevinl]

In order to detain someone against their will there has to be some legal process, the police can arrest you, you can be detained under various parts of the mental health act, usually section 2 or 3 (normally being called sectioned other parts of the act allow it too).
A Deprivation of Liberty Safeguarding Order is another way of keeping someone where they don't want to be, it is a free country so there has to be some due process of law to keep someone where they don't want to be. K

 

[EricJones]

Social Services organised Mum's.

Would my asking them prompt them to get a DoLS? Is there no other way to find out?

 

[nitram]

if there isn't a DoLS, what can they do if I brought her home?

If the assessed care is being provided little except that if she is not self funding they will work on cost to the LA which usually means a maximum of 4 visits a day before residential care.

 

[EricJones]

In order to detain someone against their will there has to be some legal process, the police can arrest you, you can be detained under various parts of the mental health act, usually section 2 or 3 (normally being called sectioned other parts of the act allow it too).
A Deprivation of Liberty Safeguarding Order is another way of keeping someone where they don't want to be, it is a free country so there has to be some due process of law to keep someone where they don't want to be. K

Her medication - lithium - had become problematically toxic, so they tried something else... and that's when her mental state worsened, the care home decided they couldn't cope, so they dropped her off at A&E. If they don't have a Deprivation of Liberty Safeguarding Order, it'd be pretty easy for them to obtain one, despite her mental state having been stablised with whatever new pharaceutical(s) they're using. She was calm when I visited the other day, calmest and most normal I've seen in a long time.

 

[EricJones]

If the assessed care is being provided little except that if she is not self funding they will work on cost to the LA which usually means a maximum of 4 visits a day before residential care.

If they don't have a DoLS in place, I take her home and don't use LA funded care, they can't take her away and prosecute me? Apologies, I know next to nothing about this stuff.

 

[nitram]

If they don't have a DoLS in place, I take her home and don't use LA funded care, they can't take her away and prosecute me? Apologies, I know next to nothing about this stuff.

They have to agree that their assessed care is being provided.

The LA adult safeguarding should be able to tell you whether a DoLS exists or has been applied for.

 

[sdmhred]

If her schizophrenia symptoms have stabilised, she may well have capacity to contribute to the discussion herself.

At the moment there are too many unknowns for us to make too much comment.

But bottom line at some point social services will want to be assured your mum’s needs can be met under your direct care or alternative care that you have sourced for her. If you can and they are not paying then a discussion could well be h…

 

[EricJones]

They have to agree that their assessed care is being provided.

If I take her home, first having established there DoLS exists or has been applied for, Social Services have to visit her at my home, to see if her needs are being met according to whatever criterion this "assessed care" is? How can I discover the specifics of that "assessed care"? Via the care home manager? The social care services?

What if we simply disappear? The only medical resource I'd need is her medication. They could find us through her new GP, once I get her registerd. I don't even know her NHS number. It's on her midication, but of course I won't have access to that if I take her home without warning.

 

[EricJones]

The LA adult safeguarding should be able to tell you whether a DoLS exists or has been applied for.

Thank you, that's good to know. The Care Quality Commission referred me to them, after a long series of phone calls and emails. Who are they and what do they do? I've been trying to find out, but quite honestly having read the Safeguarding part of the LA website, I'm none the wiser - includes terrorism, radicalisation, all sorts.

 

[SAP]

@EricJones if you take your mum away with out having conversations with the professionals involved you will be getting yourself in a big heap of trouble and maybe it’s not the best thing for your mum. If there is a DOLS then she can’t just leave, if she can just leave of her own free will then you will need access to her medication which you don’t have. Please speak with social services , get the info you need to make an informed choice and then make a plan.