My Mum was diagnosed about a year ago and is doing OK but not great...and explaining new things to her is getting harder & harder just now. At my sister's urging I've been trying to arrange Power of Attorney but a) my Mum is really resistant & struggles to understand and retain what it's all about and b) I'm not sure myself what would happen if we didn't get this organised in time. I think if I was clearer on the consequences of NOT getting POA set up it might help me to explain the whole thing to my Mum. Does anyone know what happens? Would her estate be completely untouchable without the POA - even if it was clear to medical professionals that she lacked capacity & cash needed to be freed up to pay for sheltered or specialist accommodation? Sorry - this is probably really obvious to you but it's all a bit new to me and I'd really appreciate your advice.
Power of Attorney - what happens if we don't get one organised?
- Thread starter hencloud
- Start date
Essentially if you needed to access her cash and there was no LPA (lasting power of attorney) you'd be going to court in order to gain access - time consuming and expensive normally. About the only thing you might be able to access would be her pension (since the pension people have a system to allow this) and if you do it PDQ, most banks have a system whereby you can become a "third party" on your mother's accounts provided she can understand and sign the forms. I managed being a third party on my mother's bank accounts (I was about to register the EPA when she died) but that was primarily because she had sold a property so she had a fair amount of liquid assets that were in the same bank so I could get to them.
So if you don't do it and you have to access her savings (or worse, sell a property) the only way you will be able to do it is to apply to court and spend a fair amount of money in the process. Also, you should consider getting a welfare LPA set up at the same time - this gives you rather more rights with regard to where she lives etc than might otherwise be the case.
So if you don't do it and you have to access her savings (or worse, sell a property) the only way you will be able to do it is to apply to court and spend a fair amount of money in the process. Also, you should consider getting a welfare LPA set up at the same time - this gives you rather more rights with regard to where she lives etc than might otherwise be the case.
Hi hencloud,
Welcome to Talking Point (TP).
As Jennifer has already said, if your don't get a Lasting Power of Attorney, you will have to apply to the Court of Protection which is more expensive and more time consuming. This is understandable, as they have to investigate more thoroughly as there is no proof of consent.
Also, I believe that you have to keep a detailed set of records and possibly even submit them on a regular basis for review.
We have an EPA for my MIL, so I don't have any first-hand experience of the LPA process or the Court of Protection.
You might want to look at the Alzheimer's Soiety's factsheet:
http://www.alzheimers.org.uk/factsheet/472
And there is quite a lot of good information on the website of the Office of the Public Guardian (the body who administers EPA/LPA):
http://www.publicguardian.gov.uk/index.htm
The main thing I would stress to your mum is that simply drawing up an LPA does not give it any force. It can not be used until it is registered and you would have to notify her before doing that, giving her a chance to object if she wanted to.
It is not important that she retain all the knowledge of the LPA, but it is important that she understands what it means at the time she gives her consent.
Take care,
Sandy
Welcome to Talking Point (TP).
As Jennifer has already said, if your don't get a Lasting Power of Attorney, you will have to apply to the Court of Protection which is more expensive and more time consuming. This is understandable, as they have to investigate more thoroughly as there is no proof of consent.
Also, I believe that you have to keep a detailed set of records and possibly even submit them on a regular basis for review.
We have an EPA for my MIL, so I don't have any first-hand experience of the LPA process or the Court of Protection.
You might want to look at the Alzheimer's Soiety's factsheet:
http://www.alzheimers.org.uk/factsheet/472
And there is quite a lot of good information on the website of the Office of the Public Guardian (the body who administers EPA/LPA):
http://www.publicguardian.gov.uk/index.htm
The main thing I would stress to your mum is that simply drawing up an LPA does not give it any force. It can not be used until it is registered and you would have to notify her before doing that, giving her a chance to object if she wanted to.
It is not important that she retain all the knowledge of the LPA, but it is important that she understands what it means at the time she gives her consent.
Take care,
Sandy
Hi
I have just organised POA for both Terry and myself because God forbid anything happened to me now Terry would have no idea how to cope. So I have myself with our eldest son as Terrys POA
and Gary [ son ] as mine.
The solicitors were really helpful but the process is only poss.if the person is coherent enough to know what is happening at the time.
Terry thought that it was just a follow on from making a will ehich in some ways it is, not a pleasant experience but I think a neccesity for peace of mind.
You can do the prelimaries and then register at a later date,but we were warned that the registration could take up to 6 monthes
I explained to Terry about the problems he would have if I were to have an accident etc. and he was able to deal with it without relating it to his Alzheimers.
I hope this is of some assistance
Regards
Jan
I have just organised POA for both Terry and myself because God forbid anything happened to me now Terry would have no idea how to cope. So I have myself with our eldest son as Terrys POA
and Gary [ son ] as mine.
The solicitors were really helpful but the process is only poss.if the person is coherent enough to know what is happening at the time.
Terry thought that it was just a follow on from making a will ehich in some ways it is, not a pleasant experience but I think a neccesity for peace of mind.
You can do the prelimaries and then register at a later date,but we were warned that the registration could take up to 6 monthes
I explained to Terry about the problems he would have if I were to have an accident etc. and he was able to deal with it without relating it to his Alzheimers.
I hope this is of some assistance
Regards
Jan
If there's no power of attorney then you have to apply to the Court of Protection. That is more time consuming and costly, mostly because the Court must satisfy themselves that the person concerned really has lost mental capacity, and also that whoever would hold the power would act in their best interests. I believe, though I'm not sure, that the Court can decide to award the power to someone else rather than whoever makes the application. I think that under this the attorney has to keep more complete records of what they do, whereas under an EPA/LPA there is no obligation (though, it's advisable at least for larger transactions).
Anyone who wants to set up an LPA - which has now replaced EPA - must be able to underdstand what they are doing - this is known as being "mentally competent". It is only the comprehension part that matters rather than remembering doing it.
It may be helpful to mention to your mum that if she ever "goes into a nursing home", if there is no power of attorney set up, then it is quite possible that her Local Authority and/or Social Services would take control of all her affairs.
That would happen if she lost the ability to manage her affairs, and there was no attorney and no one applied to the Court - then the authority or social services would do so.
Anyone who wants to set up an LPA - which has now replaced EPA - must be able to underdstand what they are doing - this is known as being "mentally competent". It is only the comprehension part that matters rather than remembering doing it.
It may be helpful to mention to your mum that if she ever "goes into a nursing home", if there is no power of attorney set up, then it is quite possible that her Local Authority and/or Social Services would take control of all her affairs.
That would happen if she lost the ability to manage her affairs, and there was no attorney and no one applied to the Court - then the authority or social services would do so.
Hi Hencloud
I was once in your situation.
Like you I found that it was difficult to tell mum she needed a Power of Attorney as she could not understand, but I found she was more accepting when she thought she was in the driving seat talking about something that was still relevant in her limited world.
In my case mum was content to agree to the Power of Attorney being set up because I played up her concern that the Gas Board were charging her too much for gas and I AGREED WITH HER that she had to get a refund…which I could only do FOR HER if she signed a paper saying I could speak to the Gas Board (and other people who she was paying) on her behalf.
In my mother-in-laws case her husband said he was doing a Power of Attorney for HIMSELF so SHE would be OK if he was taken ill, and he could arrange for her to have one done at the same time on a two for the price of one basis.
Best wishes
Clive
I was once in your situation.
Like you I found that it was difficult to tell mum she needed a Power of Attorney as she could not understand, but I found she was more accepting when she thought she was in the driving seat talking about something that was still relevant in her limited world.
In my case mum was content to agree to the Power of Attorney being set up because I played up her concern that the Gas Board were charging her too much for gas and I AGREED WITH HER that she had to get a refund…which I could only do FOR HER if she signed a paper saying I could speak to the Gas Board (and other people who she was paying) on her behalf.
In my mother-in-laws case her husband said he was doing a Power of Attorney for HIMSELF so SHE would be OK if he was taken ill, and he could arrange for her to have one done at the same time on a two for the price of one basis.
Best wishes
Clive
Hi Jan,
Just thought I'd chip in on this one....... I just recently registered the EPA for my Dad. It took about 8 weeks. Most of the time delay is just where the Court of Protection waits for a time period so that any of the people/relatives you have formally contacted can object if they want to. It was all a relatively painless process.
Elaine
Hi Hencloud
Some organisations, especially banks will not do anything to help without a POA regardless of what evidence of incapacity you can show them. We tried to arrange for my Uncle to set up am EPA (whilst it was still possible) but he didn't go through with it and trying to help from 300 miles away was impossible. In the end we had to apply for an LPA through the Court of Protection which took ages. Meanwhile we still had the problem of helping him deal with his finances which were out of control. Sometimes you just have to take matters in hand so that you can deal with the finances without the bank being any the wiser. I recommend:
1) If your Mum has a debit / cashpoint card, make sure you know the PIN number so you can get cash for her when required. If she will let you, hang on to the debit / cashpoint card so she can't lose it, especially if she tries to use it and can't remember the PIN number. This will also allow you to pay bills online for her if needed.
2) Go on to the bank's website and register your Mum's account for online banking. When all the paperwork, passwords etc arrive at your Mum's house, set up the account so you can deal with everything online. That way you can make new payments as needed, arrange new direct debits and cancel ones that aren't needed (we cancelled about a dozen !) and generally keep an eye on the account.
Thank God for online banking and online everything else, because with that, we were able to manage my Uncle's finances (from afar) until the LPA was sorted. We were even able to have his weekly groceries delivered courtesy of Tesco's online shopping.
This approach may not be strictly playing by the rules, but it became so necessary taking in to account the complete lack of ability of some organisations to allow for the circumstances we find ourselves in with helping our nearest and dearest.
Good luck
Chris
Some organisations, especially banks will not do anything to help without a POA regardless of what evidence of incapacity you can show them. We tried to arrange for my Uncle to set up am EPA (whilst it was still possible) but he didn't go through with it and trying to help from 300 miles away was impossible. In the end we had to apply for an LPA through the Court of Protection which took ages. Meanwhile we still had the problem of helping him deal with his finances which were out of control. Sometimes you just have to take matters in hand so that you can deal with the finances without the bank being any the wiser. I recommend:
1) If your Mum has a debit / cashpoint card, make sure you know the PIN number so you can get cash for her when required. If she will let you, hang on to the debit / cashpoint card so she can't lose it, especially if she tries to use it and can't remember the PIN number. This will also allow you to pay bills online for her if needed.
2) Go on to the bank's website and register your Mum's account for online banking. When all the paperwork, passwords etc arrive at your Mum's house, set up the account so you can deal with everything online. That way you can make new payments as needed, arrange new direct debits and cancel ones that aren't needed (we cancelled about a dozen !) and generally keep an eye on the account.
Thank God for online banking and online everything else, because with that, we were able to manage my Uncle's finances (from afar) until the LPA was sorted. We were even able to have his weekly groceries delivered courtesy of Tesco's online shopping.
This approach may not be strictly playing by the rules, but it became so necessary taking in to account the complete lack of ability of some organisations to allow for the circumstances we find ourselves in with helping our nearest and dearest.
Good luck
Chris
Hi Hencloud
My mum set up an EPA when first diagnosed with Alzheimers (which was five years ago). My sister and I are her intended attorneys. We decided to have it registered in January this year and unfortunaely our brother has objected on the grounds of "fraud and undue pressure" etc. which is ridiculous as it was done in a solicitors office and mum has had plenty of time since setting it up to change it if she so wanted.
What I can't understand is the length of time it is taking the COP to come up with a decision as to whether to go ahead and register it or proceed with statements from us etc. It it now 15weeks since objection was received by COP and our solicitor has wrote asking for further information but we are still waiting!!!! Has anyone else had problems before?
Carol
My mum set up an EPA when first diagnosed with Alzheimers (which was five years ago). My sister and I are her intended attorneys. We decided to have it registered in January this year and unfortunaely our brother has objected on the grounds of "fraud and undue pressure" etc. which is ridiculous as it was done in a solicitors office and mum has had plenty of time since setting it up to change it if she so wanted.
What I can't understand is the length of time it is taking the COP to come up with a decision as to whether to go ahead and register it or proceed with statements from us etc. It it now 15weeks since objection was received by COP and our solicitor has wrote asking for further information but we are still waiting!!!! Has anyone else had problems before?
Carol
Court of Protection
I sent of my EPA for registration with the Court of Protection in the middle of April and only just received it two weeks ago. They have moved offices this year from London to Birmingham so that may be why there are delays.
Unfortunately, when I took the registered EPA to the bank the manager said that did I realise that once it was registered with the bank my mother would not be able to even write a cheque. As I live 100 miles away from her and only wanted to be able to help out and keep an eye on her accounts this is not what I wanted so the bank manager has turned a blind eye to it. She suggested I just write a letter and get Mum to sign it and then they will send me statements. I feel that the booklets given out by the COP are very misleading.
I sent of my EPA for registration with the Court of Protection in the middle of April and only just received it two weeks ago. They have moved offices this year from London to Birmingham so that may be why there are delays.
Unfortunately, when I took the registered EPA to the bank the manager said that did I realise that once it was registered with the bank my mother would not be able to even write a cheque. As I live 100 miles away from her and only wanted to be able to help out and keep an eye on her accounts this is not what I wanted so the bank manager has turned a blind eye to it. She suggested I just write a letter and get Mum to sign it and then they will send me statements. I feel that the booklets given out by the COP are very misleading.
Lynne - in actuality it's more this specific banks rules than the COP. Different banks have different procedures for this: some allow the person to retain a modicum of control over their own accounts and some, like this one, do not.
Unfortunately I was "blessed" with one of the more rigid banks (the staff were great but their "systems" didn't allow for any variation). Have you attempted the 3rd party route? If your mother is still sufficiently capable, 3rd party access may be your best best.
Incidentally - welcome to Talking Point. Any questions or problems just post your own thread and you'll receive a lot of support. As to the "hopeless" feeling - I think we've all been there at some point.
Incidentally - welcome to Talking Point. Any questions or problems just post your own thread and you'll receive a lot of support. As to the "hopeless" feeling - I think we've all been there at some point.
Hello, Lynne
Just to say that I opted for the Third Party route on the bank account, and it made life so much easier all round, because it gives you the ability to set up direct debits, or standing orders, and to have online access to the account, if you want that, which means you can pay bills if need be. And it means you really can keep an eye on things from a distance. Lengthy form to fill in, signed by both parties, but that was all.
We didn't have a registered EPA in place at the time, so I don't know how that might affect things. If your Mum's Bank Manager is a caring bank manager, and he sounds as though he is if he's suggested the signed letter - then it may be possible.
.
Just to say that I opted for the Third Party route on the bank account, and it made life so much easier all round, because it gives you the ability to set up direct debits, or standing orders, and to have online access to the account, if you want that, which means you can pay bills if need be. And it means you really can keep an eye on things from a distance. Lengthy form to fill in, signed by both parties, but that was all.
We didn't have a registered EPA in place at the time, so I don't know how that might affect things. If your Mum's Bank Manager is a caring bank manager, and he sounds as though he is if he's suggested the signed letter - then it may be possible.
.
Court of Protection
Thanks everyone, I will ring the bank on Monday and see what the manager says. It will be great to access online as my mother has loads of standing orders for charities that she keeps sending off and which she really can't afford. Why do charities prey on vulnerable people??
Thanks everyone, I will ring the bank on Monday and see what the manager says. It will be great to access online as my mother has loads of standing orders for charities that she keeps sending off and which she really can't afford. Why do charities prey on vulnerable people??
Depending on the bank, you may not "officially" be able to set up online access as a third party (although if you still go the EPA route you should be able to). Specifically HSBC will not (or did not 2 years ago) allow third parties online access. This was a major problem for me as I was in the US and mummy was in the UK. SInce she had now died I can tell you that I set her up with online access, and just used her username and password (the hoops we jump through...). I do know, though, that there are other banks that DO allow online access for third parties (although at least one of them wouldn't allow me to access the account from overseas, but that's another story).
Edited to add: Was this breaking the law? I don't believe so, other banks allow this. Was it against the banks rules? Undoubtedly. Was it unethical? I don't believe so.
Edited to add: Was this breaking the law? I don't believe so, other banks allow this. Was it against the banks rules? Undoubtedly. Was it unethical? I don't believe so.
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N.twest had no problems with online access to third party account. Then!
The only person 'bending the rules' was possibly your Mother, by divulging her username and password. And if you bank with the same bank, then the new account should be linked to your own account(s) anyway. So you can then use your own username/password.
Illegal? Nope. Immoral? Nope. Unethical? Definitely not.
.
The only person 'bending the rules' was possibly your Mother, by divulging her username and password. And if you bank with the same bank, then the new account should be linked to your own account(s) anyway. So you can then use your own username/password.
Illegal? Nope. Immoral? Nope. Unethical? Definitely not.
.
Court of Protection
Well I telephoned the Bank Manager this morning and guess what, Mum had set up third party banking back in 1997 but never told me! Trouble is the security number failed in 2008 and so I have to take Mum into her local branch and reset it, not easy as all the local banks near her have been closed. I do feel that things are going my way now even though she verbally abused me on Thursday night saying that I was an awful daughter for dumping her and she wanted to go home ( she lives in her own home that she has been in since 1956)!
Well I telephoned the Bank Manager this morning and guess what, Mum had set up third party banking back in 1997 but never told me! Trouble is the security number failed in 2008 and so I have to take Mum into her local branch and reset it, not easy as all the local banks near her have been closed. I do feel that things are going my way now even though she verbally abused me on Thursday night saying that I was an awful daughter for dumping her and she wanted to go home ( she lives in her own home that she has been in since 1956)!
