Pointers needed please regarding ‘top up fees'

[Austinsmum]

We have set wheels in motion to get mum into respite asap. This is a first for us and I want to get my facts straight re top up fees. On Friday, a social worker telephoned me to ask about mum’s needs and during the conversation he warned me that we would likely incur ‘third party top up fees’. Now, from reading the posts on this forum am I right in believing that these are illegal? Or only under certain parameters? (I’ve been out to do the horses this morning and every time I put my hand to my face I can detect a definite odour of fox urine! quite distracting and it doesn’t wash off easily...) Anyway, I digress. On this forum I keep seeing caveats about ‘don’t sign anything’ etc. Are these regarding permanent care home fees or does it apply to respite too?
Mum has around £14K savings, no house of her own as she lives with us, a state and decent occupational pension.
Would be grateful for any advice.

 

[1954]

We have been told that there maybe a top up fee for respite depending on her savings (she has £8k) and I thought that was normal for respite. I would also be keen to know if it is normal x

 

[CollegeGirl]

I will also be interested in the answer to this one because it may explain why every time my mam goes into respite (for 5 days) my dad has to pay something - usually around £130.

Neither of us has ever understood why.

Mam gets attendance allowance, and we thought it was maybe something to do with having to pay this back for the period that she was in respite, but if that's so, the figures don't add up.

Then dad thought maybe it was to pay for her meals.

Or a combination of the two.

It's all very puzzling and has never really been explained properly to dad, or he can't remember, and therefore I am totally flummoxed about it too.

 

[Jo1958]

Hi,
When hubby had respite we paid a certain percentage that was worked out after a financial assessment, it took into account savings, income and certain living costs.

I've just looked at the paperwork and we paid £133.40 for a week's respite in 2011. I don't know what percentage of the total cost this was as we were billed by the council for our share without reference to the total cost.

I hope this helps, with best wishes from Jo

 

[jeany123]

I will also be interested in the answer to this one because it may explain why every time my mam goes into respite (for 5 days) my dad has to pay something - usually around £130.

Neither of us has ever understood why.

Mam gets attendance allowance, and we thought it was maybe something to do with having to pay this back for the period that she was in respite, but if that's so, the figures don't add up.

Then dad thought maybe it was to pay for her meals.

Or a combination of the two.

It's all very puzzling and has never really been explained properly to dad, or he can't remember, and therefore I am totally flummoxed about it too.

We had a financial assessment to see how much we would have to pay for respite even though our savings are well below £14,000 we still have to pay a proportion of the cost, I don't think this is classed as top-up fee it is what they deemed that we can afford,

 

[Austinsmum]

We had a financial assessment to see how much we would have to pay for respite even though our savings are well below £14,000 we still have to pay a proportion of the cost, I don't think this is classed as top-up fee it is what they deemed that we can afford,

Your answer touches on an area that’s confusing me. Many times on this forum I’ve seen it written that no adult can be held responsible for another adult. So, if I’m reading your answer right, the LA have decided what YOU can afford to contribute to help care for someone else. Take this one step further, and where is it enshrined in law as to how to determine the identity of this third party who the LA says is liable? Where does the buck stop? Great grandchildren? Second cousins who’ve emigrated?

 

[jeany123]

No i am sorry they just took Allens income and savings into account not mine or my half of our savings,

He pays for the respite , I class it all as our money but they don't ,



Jeany x

 

[jenniferpa]

The problem is: there is a hole in CRAG when it comes to charging for the first 8 weeks of a temporary stay, and that is that the document says

An assessment of ability to pay is not required for the first eight weeks of a stay. It is for the local authority to decide whether it will carry out a financial assessment or whether it will charge an amount that it appears reasonable for the resident to pay. If it is decided to carry out a financial assessment, the calculation should be in accordance with Sections 4 to 12.

So if they don't do a proper financial assessment, then they can basically make up a figure. Having said that, though, these 3rd party top-ups still shouldn't come into play: note the words I've bolded above. It's all about the resident's ability to pay, not anyone else.

I suppose a case could be made that respite is a service to the carer (hence the carer making a contribution) but I think as much as anything, these requests for top-ups for respite are down to LAs trying to slide past the rules and failing to realise the implications of what they are saying. In fact, if they simply said respite will cost you £X, then they could almost certainly do that. By using the phrase "top-ups" they potentially are falling foul of the regulations.

The other thing to consider as well is: who is choosing the home for respite? And does the home in question cost more than the normal LA payment? I think especially when it comes to respite, people may be more inclined to throw caution to the wind (financially speaking) because 1) it's just for a short time and 2) there's little point in respite if you are constantly worrying about the person in care (although of course, that happens anyway).

But to be honest, this is all speculation on my part and in the final analysis, I simply don't know. All I can suggest, if you find yourself being asked to pay a top-up for respite I would push really hard for documentation about how and why that top-up is being calculated. Many LAs have information about this (say, the first 4 weeks of respite is charged at a flat rate) but many seem to make it up as they go along.

 

[jenniferpa]

Oh - and another thought. If they say you have to pay a 3rd party fee for a selected home, then ask them for a list of homes that do not require a 3rd party top-up. I was just looking at your LA website and they (like many other LAs) use a banding scheme when they assess a person, put them in a band and then add additional needs fees to work out home much they (the LA) will pay. But if this is too arbitrary, then there may not be a home that will accept the payment. And if that's the case the LA must make up the shortfall.

As your LA says:

If a resident has no one willing to act as a third party and the care home won’t accept the assessed banding rate it may be necessary to look for a care home that will accept the assessed banding rate.

So if you don't wish to (or cannot) pay the 3rd party fee they need to tell you which care home(s) will accept it.

 

[Fed Up]

I pay a top up it is seperate from what mum payes and is because the level of care she needs is beyond the scope of other homes and so costs a little more. And to be honest I think its ok I bought her a bigger room with bath and the CH is so good I believe it to be worth every penny. That was my choice and I don't expect the state to pick up for lifstyle thing. But that is for permeant care and they did not charge for the few weeks either. It was not until she was in the CH and it was made permeant that the question of fees came up. Perhaps our LA was a bit slow I don't know but its not usually generous!!
It is not something the cared for may pay because that then would be a deprivation of income. Apparently the gov. thinks your friends or even the next door neighbour might want to pay for you in care. It is not means tested or was not in my case but perhaps because I knew about it and had already decided it was ok. We thought at the time how long can she last... now we think will the money run out before she runs out of breath. LOL. I do hope so as she looks so well.
Actually we will be ok its not a problem, but for others it may be so and I think if you don't have the resources it would be foolish to agree to anything which is not your choice. Don't be bullied into making promises as you could in theory be asked for ever larger sums as costs go up. That has not happened to us but it could. I did read about it and would say is is perfectly legal but probably immoral but so is a lot of other things these days.

 

[Austinsmum]

Oh - and another thought. If they say you have to pay a 3rd party fee for a selected home, then ask them for a list of homes that do not require a 3rd party top-up. I was just looking at your LA website and they (like many other LAs) use a banding scheme when they assess a person, put them in a band and then add additional needs fees to work out home much they (the LA) will pay. But if this is too arbitrary, then there may not be a home that will accept the payment. And if that's the case the LA must make up the shortfall.

As your LA says:



So if you don't wish to (or cannot) pay the 3rd party fee they need to tell you which care home(s) will accept it.

Huge thanks for your input Jennifer. Will analyse it in detail tomorrow when mum goes to day care and I have some space...X

 

[Austinsmum]

Dear Fedup,

thanks for your considerate reply. This particular phrase struck a chord with me;

It is not something the cared for may pay because that then would be a deprivation of income. Apparently the gov. thinks your friends or even the next door neighbour might want to pay for you in care.

Had a big day today and need to chill and then mull things over tomorrow when I’ve got some space.

Huge thanks to you guys for responding. XXX

 

[Austinsmum]

Hi,
When hubby had respite we paid a certain percentage that was worked out after a financial assessment, it took into account savings, income and certain living costs.

I've just looked at the paperwork and we paid £133.40 for a week's respite in 2011. I don't know what percentage of the total cost this was as we were billed by the council for our share without reference to the total cost.

I hope this helps, with best wishes from Jo

Thanks for your candid response Jo, much appreciate you taking the trouble to read and relate my post to your similar circumstance. Very helpful information. X