Discretionary Disregard of Property....Refused

[Pete R]

I do realise there are many others in a similar and much, much worse position than me but I just needed a moan.

I used to live on a boat and work abroad. I sold up and moved in with Mom 11 years ago as she needed help whilst having a knee replacement. The op went badly and so did the revision. That's about the time her memory started to fade although she refused to go to the docs to get a diagnosis. (She is now suspected of having VasD). I reduced my work hours as she was needing more and more help with daily life.

3 years ago she broke her hip and if I had not been here to look after her she would not have been allowed home from hospital and would have been placed in a NH. 3 years of fairly full on care with no help from the state asked for or offered. I made sure Mom was safe & happy, took her medication (she would forget), did all the cooking, cleaning, maintenance, shopping, made sure all the bills were paid. I took her to all her medical appointments and outings. Fortunately she could still go to the toilet herself although there were often accidents as she wasn't always quick enough.

After another recent fall at home and a burst Ulcer whilst in hospital Mom is currently in a NH for a reablement programme. However in 2 weeks no one has yet been to offer any physio, so it looks like the state have given up on her and her stay will need to be permanent.

Mom has around £20,000 in savings and the house is worth around £180,000. Finance assessment completed and I applied for a discretionary discharge on the property as I am only 54 and currently not "incapacitated".

Yesterday I got the decision that it has been rejected on the grounds that "I have not given up my own home" & there is "no evidence suggesting that the care you have personally provided has actually prolonged your mother's stay in the community therefore delaying her admission to permanent residential care resulting in savings being made to the public purse".

Hopefully Mom will live for many more years to come and I will stay to make sure she is well looked after. It's Sunday lunch at the home today so I will pop along to help feed her and explain yet again why she is not allowed home and why no one has come to help her walk again as promised.

However after the house is sold I will be homeless and might, by then, be in need of a NH myself after squandering all my meagre savings to get it down to below £14,000. So if any of you have kids or grand kids that work in NH's or are thinking of it as a career then please say to them that if they ever come across a miserable, cantankerous embittered old B####~d then it might be me and I apologise now but do try to remember that I did have a heart once.

Hindsight, if only!

 

[jeany123]

Oh Pete that is terrible I know it is the rules but was there any need to say,
"no evidence suggesting that the care you have personally provided has actually prolonged your mother's stay in the community therefore delaying her admission to permanent residential care resulting in savings being made to the public purse"

When you gave up your home and time for her it is so unfair, you did what a lot of other people would not do, I congratulate you on being there for your mum even if the LA doesn't, I hope you find somewhere to live and try not to be too bitter about this,

Best Wishes Jeany xx

 

[WILLIAMR]

Hi Pete

I do sympathise with your situation. I do know somebody who lives on a boat so I think that should have been regarded as your home.
Proving you cared for your mother might be slightly more difficult but I would have thought the hospitals and medics would have known if you were always at appointments etc.
Also neighbours might know that you were caring and even your local supermarket.
I did not live with Dad but several of the people working in the supermarket knew I was helping with Dad's care. Even the salesman who sold us our cars knew.
The problem is the councils powers to disregard your mother's house is discretionary and the council is not obliged to disregard the property.
The council is not allowed to leave you homeless so it must find you somewhere but it may be a 1 bedroom flat in a tower block.
A few people I have helped inherited half of the property when the first parent died and were living in it and had been caring for the parent for years.
Because the property was jointly owned the council could not force them to sell even though they would be left by themselves in a 6 bedroom property but the council tried it on.

William

 

[LYN T]

Sympathy for the position that you now find yourself in.

Just a suggestion -could you sell your Mum's house (providing that you have POA or deputyship) You could perhaps buy a health Annuity which would find her care for the remainder of her life?

That way you would have the balance of her funds to buy another boat to live on or some funds for future rental. I don't think you would be able to spend the money until your Mothers death unless anything you buy i.e. a houseboat is put in her name?

Others will advise.

It's unfortunate, in some ways, that SS's were not involved with your Mum's care as at least you would have some 'proof' to the powers that be.

A sad situation and heartless, IMO, by the LA

Take care

Lyn T

 

[Pete R]

Thanks both for the support. I do no think the LA can force me to leave but will instead put a charge on the house so when it is sold after Mom's death they can recover the money owed.

I have though, just had a "light bulb" moment and have a question I had never thought to ask before.

The rules state that the house would be disregarded if a relative over 60 years old lives in the house. I have 6 years to go.

Would the house then be disregarded from any further payment??

 

[LYN T]

I don't know Pete

Could you phone the CAB? I'm sure they will be able to help.

There are lots of people who know about this kind of situation who post regularly- I'm sure you will get some more info later.

My advice-don't give up without a fight

Take care

Lyn T

 

[Pete R]

Sympathy for the position that you now find yourself in.

Just a suggestion -could you sell your Mum's house (providing that you have POA or deputyship) You could perhaps buy a health Annuity which would find her care for the remainder of her life?

Thanks Lyn.

I will look into an annuity and although the POA is due to be registered shortly I have a sister to deal with who when Mom needed the most help suddenly relocated to Australia and is being characteristically awkward.

With regard to the boat I should say that not only was it my home it was also my business. I used to be a qualified instructor and took people out sailing around the Med for a week or 2 at a time. I have savings enough to probably do that again but it would be difficult as 11 years of contacts have gone by. Also I would no longer be close enough to still visit Mom on a regular basis. Something I intend to do till the last marble has gone missing and the reason I want to stay in the house.

Edit.......Just read your next post. CAB and solicitors tomorrow. No intention of ever giving in

 

[Saffie]

Could you prove that the boat was your only home?
If you can do that and have the proof of sale etc and evidence that you have been caring for your mother ever since, maybe that would make a diference.
I mean a lot of people live on boats and if you can prove that you gave it up to care for your mother, thereby saving the LA thousands of pounds, it might help.

Then again, after my experience with the LA herabouts, it might very well not!
They don't have hearts!

 

[WILLIAMR]

Another thought I have had is call Age UK on 0800 1696565 for advice and try to give examples of your care which could be proved.

A lady who lived by me had never left home. Her mother passed away and had left her half of the house.
This was a few weeks before her 60th birthday.
At the time of the death we did not think the father had dementia but he did do a few peculiar things like come in to my garage when I was there and helped himself to a drink from the fridge and on a second visit he more less pushed past me and started making himself a coffee in our kitchen.
I did speak to the daughter and at that point but we thought he was a bit off balance due to her mother's death and she said if he helped himself to something let him have it and she would replace it. My real concern was he could go taking things from somewhere else and not the replacement.
Sadly he started getting violent and she had to call for an ambulance 2 days before her 60th birthday but the father was in hospital for about 6 weeks before it was decided he would have to go in to care.
Probate came through just after the father had been admitted to the hospital and the daughters title was registered a few days later.
When it got to the assessment social services tried to argue the daughter was not 60 on the date of the father's admission to the hospital and as the house was in probate she was not a part owner.
She phoned Age UK and they stated that she was not a legal owner at the time of her father's admission to hospital but she was a beneficial owner and that meant that the house could not be sold to pay the fees.
She did tell the council that was the legal situation and it would have to take legal action if they wanted her to sell. Some other arguments were put forward but no action was taken to get her to sell.
Sadly the father passed away just before last Christmas.

William

 

[Pete R]

Thanks again for all the advice.

As far as I am aware there is no appeal process unless there is new evidence. Although I can contact some ombudsman.

I prepared a 5 page statement that showed everything I have done and can all be proven but it seems lots of it have been over looked by the decision maker including an important time 3 years ago when Mom broke her hip and SW would not let Mom come home unless she could be certain I would be there to look after her.

Tomorrow the battle continues.

 

[WILLIAMR]

Thanks again for all the advice.

As far as I am aware there is no appeal process unless there is new evidence. Although I can contact some ombudsman.

I prepared a 5 page statement that showed everything I have done and can all be proven but it seems lots of it have been over looked by the decision maker including an important time 3 years ago when Mom broke her hip and SW would not let Mom come home unless she could be certain I would be there to look after her.

Tomorrow the battle continues.

I think it is the Local Government Ombudsman.
Hopefully your 5 page statement will help.
As you can see from my last thread councils are not exactly being generous.
The lady had to contend with the loss of her mother and the father's dementia and the possible loss of her home.
It was very hard of the council to say she would have to sell because she was 2 days short of her 60th birthday but the council was wrong on the ownership side.
Oddly she did not do much caring as the father's dementia came on very quick.

William

 

[vernumamy]

Thanks again for all the advice.

As far as I am aware there is no appeal process unless there is new evidence. Although I can contact some ombudsman.

I prepared a 5 page statement that showed everything I have done and can all be proven but it seems lots of it have been over looked by the decision maker including an important time 3 years ago when Mom broke her hip and SW would not let Mom come home unless she could be certain I would be there to look after her.

Tomorrow the battle continues.

Please also take into consideration.....

CRAG 7.011


Where the LA considers it reasonable to do so, they can disregard the value of premises not covered in paragraphs 7.002 to 7.008 in which a third party lives. LAs will have to balance the use of this discretion with the need to ensure that residents with assets are not maintained at public expense. It may be reasonable, for example, to disregard a dwelling's value where it is the sole residence of someone who has given up their own home in order to care for the resident, or someone who is an elderly companion of the resident particularly if they have given up their own home. These are only examples and not exhaustive. Schedule 4 paragraph 18

Hope this may also be of use.

 

[Cathy67]

Looks like I may be in a similar situation as you Pete, as I have always lived at home (never moved out partly as it was unaffordable and partly as I didn't want to live alone), I am now 46 and mum went into a CH in March although we were told it was on a temporary basis. If it comes to being told I can't live in the only home I've ever known, I will go to my MP, the local papers, even the TV if need be!!

Don't give up Pete, let us know how things go.