How safe is driving?

[Vicky C]

Hi,

This is my first post.

Mom, who forgets she has AD, was recently considered to have moved from mild to moderate. She is still driving, something I have been worried about for some time. Her car is picking up an increasing number of unexplained scrapes and scratches, and the next door neighbours recently found her stopped on the road asking strangers for directions on what would be a familiar route.

I have raised it with the GP and the consultant geriatrician a number of time. The consultant recently acknowledged my worries and suggested I set up an assessment with the Irish Wheelchair Association (who apparently are the "go to" people). They passed her fit to drive, having previously told me their concern is to keep people on the road where possible, not put them off it (so I think we're of different mindsets!).

I have told the insurance co about her diagnosis and they're happy to keep covering her until the doc will no longer certify her. However, Mom can't cope with paperwork so I have to rifle through her post and make sure she has sent back DD mandates etc to the insurance co (and other unrelated things). So, I'm now stressing out trying to sort the paperwork in a way that doesn't upset her about her memory, and all so she can carry on with an activity I think has become too dangerous for her!!

I know that giving up driving is an awful loss of freedom, and she's already feeling miserable enough, but I'm increasingly worried.

Any ideas?

Sorry for length of post!

V

 

[stillcaring]

we went through this with my mum - her main problem was getting lost. I think her actual driving was OK. Eventually she lost her confidence and stopped on her own, much to our relief. But if that doesn't happen you'll have to do something as she might hurt someone else. Is there any mileage in finding some excuse to follow her somewhere just to see how bad her driving is? I did follow my mum on the M27 once and was horrified to see her disappear into the middle distance. When I eventually met her at my house I challenged her and she had totallly forgotten that they introduced a speed limit on motorways (in about the 1970s) and thought you could go as fast as you liked! HOw she never got a speeding fine I don't know. Good luck!

 

[Shadow01]

I took my mums car away from her ...
I have to say it was not easy as it is a big removal of her independence.

I noticed that she was putting off certain trips... saying ... I will go tomorrow... I sensed she was losing confidence.
She was also accumulating unexplained scrapes and getting lost.
She owned up to knocking off someones wing mirror (they were parked) and not stopping.
She once drove into the back of a parked car going up a hill as a lorry was coming the other way!!!! She had to tell me about that as I had to rescue her

Her friend I think was getting afraid of being in the car with her but would not say anything...(to my mum that is)
She was also becoming very jumpy.... e.g. her peripheral vision was getting worse and so if a car pulled up at a left junction she would shout a big "oooowh" etc

I know you are supposed to inform the DVLA ......(who will request a check from the doctor and report back) and get a check from the doctor.

but in my mums case I felt this was not soon enough and was worried someone could get hurt.
I felt I could not have it on my conscience if something bad happened.

Ideas for how (may not be favorable with some people... but I wanted to ensure my mum did not have a knock in her confidence)
Some people use an excuse about the car being put in the garage awaiting "a part"
I used my son learning to drive (and the insurance on her car was cheaper to get than on mine).
but the correct way is for the doctor to say and DVLA to be informed

 

[Fed Up]

I have some sympathy but and without generalising is there a defence of VD/A if you accidentally kill someone by driving dangerously ?

I'm in SE England, the roads M2, A2, M25 etc need fast reactions and all are very busy can a person with VD/A cope with that realistically. If the dr says ok then I suppose they must be but its an incredibly selfish chance to take with other peoples lives.

Insurance could be even worse said ok but in the event of an accident then says no as condition got worse and we did'nt know.

Imagine being the wife of the person killed do I think liberty at any cost is ok.? No my husband is dead because that person did not take the keys from those other hands.

I know lots of bad drivers about but risk has too be managed, sorry if that upsets anyone but knock on a door to say "sorry and may I come in?' thats far worse.

 

[Countryboy]

Why is it that any person committing any sort of crime there are procedures where it has to be proved that that that person is guilty before any judgement or sentence is passed even if there known to have committed the offence,

Yet as soon as a persons is diagnosed with Dementia every one want to take away their liberty where’s the Justice it that, people with dementias can live normal lives for many years possibly 30 years or more

The DVLA will tell you quick enough if your fit to drive leave it to the Professional assessors

 

[Saffie]

I'm afraid that I'm appalled but the response for your GP and consultant. As soon as my husband's GP was aware of his confusion, he rang the DVLA and they wrote asking for my husband to return his licence. He was very upset but the GP's reasoning was that if my husband caused an accident, or even worse, a death, then not only would my husband not be able to live with himself, neither would the GP.

I'm wondering what on earth a Wheelchair Association has to do with driving vehicles on the roads! When I learnt to drive I was told that cars are lethal weapons.

 

[Pennie]

With you all the way there Fed Up.

In my case I was lucky and the GP having done some memory tests (didn't do well at all) and looking at Mum's frail and severely curving spine (she could hardly see over the steering wheel - a terrifying sight!) told her that if she didn't stop driving she would be duty bound to tell the DVLA.

Mum has been really fed up (sorry!) about it ever since - 3 years ago, and last time she was moaning about it, probably about 3/4 months ago she thought she would still be fine behind the wheel, oh dear.

I had already had some gentle words from a few concerned people in town and mother's car had the knack of looking more and more beaten up and collecting other people's paint, so I was seriously relieved that she stopped before she managed to harm anyone else. I think that is the key point really.

 

[jenniferpa]

Hi there.

I have to say, I think you've been given less than accurate information about this. I just had a quick look at the wheelchair site, and while I am sure they do an excellent job with regard to ensuring that those people who are mobility impaired get appropriate accommodations, the issue here isn't that your mother is mobility impaired but that she is possibly mentally impaired.

According to this http://www.citizensinformation.ie/e...g_a_medical_report_for_a_driving_licence.html while it doesn't specifically mention dementia, I do think your mother's condition merits a medical certificate, although Ireland don't appear to have a reporting requirement. I would still print off the medical certificate and ask if the doctor would be happy/willing to sign it under the circumstances. Sometimes having to put their name to something like and official certificate makes a person re think their position.

See also here http://www.rsa.ie/en/RSA/Licensed-Drivers/Safe-driving/Medical-Issues/

(actually this one mentions "A serious problem with memory or periods of confusion")

 

[Fed Up]

Tony by liberty I did not mean containing someone by force, nothing to do with crime or prison. Merely that none of us can do as we like. We are all constrained by ability whether carer or cared for we can't just do. So having VD/A is no different in some ways to a sufferer of Epilepsy having their licence revoked albeit for a while or permanently, in that driving is an activity that relies on co-ordination, thought and judgement and other things as well. If in doubt then the onus must surely be to exercise caution.
Yes you are right some may be fine for many years but if the carer is concerned then really the GP is a formality.
Would you get into a car with someone who has no sense of reality, no sense of speed, no ability to make an emergency stop, would I get in a car with my mum at the wheel NO WAY, yet she used to drive a train.

 

[oldfella]

Hi firstly may I say how I feel for you and your dilemma, I went through it with my wife. Can I suggest approaching a driving instructor to ask him/her to carry out an assesement drive, I done this with my wife and she carried on driving for about 6 months then she had another assesement and the driving instructor advised her to give up. It was hard for her at first but after we pointed out the risks and spoke about what could happen if she continued to drive she realised we were only doing what was best. I hope this helps.

 

[Countryboy]

Hi firstly may I say how I feel for you and your dilemma, I went through it with my wife. Can I suggest approaching a driving instructor to ask him/her to carry out an assesement drive, I done this with my wife and she carried on driving for about 6 months then she had another assesement and the driving instructor advised her to give up. It was hard for her at first but after we pointed out the risks and spoke about what could happen if she continued to drive she realised we were only doing what was best. I hope this helps.

Hi thank you “oldfella” for replying with a real sensible reply as you say your Wife had a driving assessment but unfortunately for her she failed no problem with that no different that a learner driver going for a test, however it is unfair to because of the diagnoses of dementia a person is forced into this situation when there are far more dangerous drivers of all ages allowed to drive, I been driving almost 14 years with dementia and possibly another 14 years who knows, I have been replying to threads on Talking Point about driving since March 2005 nothing has changed

 

[dotfoxleics]

Why is it that any person committing any sort of crime there are procedures where it has to be proved that that that person is guilty before any judgement or sentence is passed even if there known to have committed the offence,

Yet as soon as a persons is diagnosed with Dementia every one want to take away their liberty where’s the Justice it that, people with dementias can live normal lives for many years possibly 30 years or more

The DVLA will tell you quick enough if your fit to drive leave it to the Professional assessors

I don't get your point. You talk about "normal lives" in your post. In Vicky C's mother's case it is not normal to get lost and get unexplained scratches and knocks. Something is definitely not normal.

My mother started getting lost and I had no hesitation in stopping her from driving since it showed a lack of being able to concentrate on getting from A to B. I don't regret it for a moment.

 

[jenniferpa]

And this is what the Medical Fitness to Drive Guidelines says



In fact, the doctor should report to the Road Safety Authority if )s)he feel that the patient has insufficient insight to heed his/her warnings about driving.

 

[Countryboy]

I don't get your point. You talk about "normal lives" in your post. In Vicky C's mother's case it is not normal to get lost and get unexplained scratches and knocks. Something is definitely not normal.

My mother started getting lost and I had no hesitation in stopping her from driving since it showed a lack of being able to concentrate on getting from A to B. I don't regret it for a moment.

I’m sorry you don’t get my point I was diagnosed with Alzheimer’s in 1999 and live a very normal life I dive here in UK and abroad, its about being treated as an individual person irrespective of a word called dementia it’s the bureaucrats that try to stigmatize us all with dementia as being the same obviously were not

 

[dotfoxleics]

I’m sorry you don’t get my point I was diagnosed with Alzheimer’s in 1999 and live a very normal life I dive here in UK and abroad, its about being treated as an individual person irrespective of a word called dementia it’s the bureaucrats that try to stigmatize us all with dementia as being the same obviously were not

I wasn't saying that it is not possible for you and others to lead normal lives. I was saying that Vicky C's mother's driving was not normal. I don't know you so I wouldn't dream of saying you were not leading a normal life whatever that is.

I was commenting on an individual's behaviour.

 

[Witzend]

The DVLA will tell you quick enough if your fit to drive leave it to the Professional assessors

Sorry, Tony, but I don't see how anyone from the DVLA, or any GP for that matter, who may see someone occasionally for 15 minutes, can judge whether they're safe to drive. The people who are with them constantly, who see the everyday reality, are the ones who are best equipped to judge. I mean of course in cases where (as so often) people cannot or do not accept that there is anything wrong with them, when it is painfully obvious to those around them that this is not the case.

I'm not at all saying that people with dementia are never safe to drive - of course some are and may be for a considerable time. But when the issue is raised here, it's nearly always because someone has genuine and very well justified concerns. I'm sure nobody ever wants to take someone else's licence away unless there are very good reasons.

 

[Shadow01]

My mum denied causing any of the scratches on her car... she put them down to
"others in the car park".

She still today will say that she is OK to drive and she truly believes it.
We are all different and each case needs to be assessed under it's own merit.
For this one size does not fit all....

However I am sure in my mums case she is no longer safe to drive. Regardless of if a doctor says she is (I would ask them to put it in writing as Jenniferpa suggested)

My mum has not been formally diagnosed (yet) she has been referred and we are awaiting the appointment for the scan and memory clinic

 

[andrean]

We had this with mum a few years ago. She was getting more and more hesitant, getting lost, not seeing other road users, and generally causing us concern. In the end I asked myself how I would feel if she killed someone because we allowed her to go on driving after we should have stopped her. At that point, we decided she had to stop.

With mum, we managed to persuade her that because she was using her car very little, it simply made no financial sense to keep it - it would be much cheaper to use public transport or even taxis. She saw the sense of that, and reluctantly accepted that it was time to stop, and we didn't need to say 'We don't think you're safe any more', which would undoubtedly have been upsetting for her.

Had she not accepted that, I think I would have had to force the issue: she was not capable of making a reasoned judgement for herself about how safe she was, and it was therefore our responsibility to do so - not for her sake, but for the sake of other people who would have been endangered had she carried on.

If you have any doubts at all about your mother's safety, you need to stop her driving. A car is a lethal weapon and not something to take a chance with.

 

[dotfoxleics]

My earlier post did sound a bit "holier than thou" and a bit brutal. Mum and I had a chat after I'd heard through a relative that she had become disorientated on two occasions and agreed that since it was only a few weeks away from her car insurance renewal that for her safety and the safety of others it would be best that she stopped driving. At that time she had no formal diagnosis but had been referred to the Memory Clinic by her GP. She has two major chain supermarkets within a 200 yards walk and a taxi firm just around the corner and an excellent bus service at the top of the road. Her everyday quality of life wasn't affected much by not driving but she would have carried on if I had not intervened.

The parent/child relationship does eventually get reversed and sometimes we do have to tell our parents what to do as sad as that is.

 

[Vicky C]

Thank you all for the replies. As an only child, and my mother's only carer, it's great to have a community of people to go to for ideas.