POA -or not? I'm confused.

LindaPP

Registered User
Sep 28, 2012
18
0
Gloucestershire
MIL has recently been formally diagnosed with vascular dementia - although the signs have been there for a couple of years. Advice from the memory clinic says that it would still be possible to get POA. A solicitor friend says that since one of her children can sign on Mum's current account that all that really needs to be done is to get Mum to put one or more of her children as signatories on her building society account. Mum signed over her house to her three children many years ago.
Having read about difficulties of not having POA on this site I wondered if anyone had any thoughts about this. What if Mum needs medical assistance at a future date and refuses - if there is no POA, does that mean going for a section?
Many thanks in advance for your help
 

Butter

Registered User
Jan 19, 2012
6,737
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NeverNeverLand
There are two LPAs: one for health and welfare, the other for finance/assets. I am not a solicitor but I disagree with the informal advice you have: nobody knows what the future holds and if your mum is able to make her wishes clear now, all sorts of problems can be avoided. Problems that you cannot foresee.

I have made LPAs - just as I have made a will - and I think we should all make them as a matter of course. It means that, should we be unlucky enough to join the people who continue to live while unable to manage anything for themselves, our old selves will have made our wishes known. Officially.
 

longacre

Registered User
Feb 17, 2008
117
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London
I agree with Butter. I would get both the LPA's for finances and medical done asap. I did both for my father and mother shortly after diagnosis (at different times!) and both their doctors were happy to sign them as they were still early enough on the dementia 'journey'. Whilst it doesnt mean that the person cant still handle things themselves if they are able to - as my solicitor reminded me off just recently actually when as issue came up - but it has been peace of mind for us all having them in place. It is difficult enough dealing with all the bureaucratic issues you are likely to have to, without the extra issue of not having a POA in place. Good luck with it.
 

jenniferpa

Registered User
Jun 27, 2006
39,442
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Are you in England or Wales? I ask because if you are, your solicitor friend really isn't familiar with banking law as it should be applied here (Scotland is different). If a person loses capacity, even if there is a joint account or a third party mandate (which is the case when you become a signatory on another person's account) the bank should freeze the account.

Also, if your mother has 1) a private pension or 2) any kind of credit card/utility bill/council tax issue/pays taxes or anything at all that is slightly official (excepting state pensions and benefits) you will need at least an LPA for finances if you want them to speak to you as opposed to your mother.

Not having a welfare LPA in place will have no effect with whether a section might be appropriate: that would be decided entirely on the basis of her condition and in reality having an LPA would make no difference to that. However, there are situations where having a welfare LPA makes things much more straightforward and I can tell you, when there are so many things related to dementia that are never straightforward it seems unwise not to take the steps that you can take that might make it just that bit easier.
 

longgoodbye

Registered User
Nov 23, 2011
60
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I agree, get POAs while you still can. Being a joint account holder is very useful but POAs give more authority, as mentored above. Particularly the welfare issues of doctors being allowed to discuss and decide treatments with the attorney, and the attorney being allowed to make decisions about where the person lives e.g. moving to residential care etc.
 

lin1

Registered User
Jan 14, 2010
9,350
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East Kent
Hello Linda
I do wish friends be they solicitors or not would give the best/correct advice

Here in England and Wales I am not sure about Scotland, if the banks even THINK the account holder may have has lost capacity, they will freeze their accounts , they dont actually need proof the person has lost capacity a suspicion is enough for them to do this , his happened with my mum, but luckily not to mum n dads joint accounts, though I have read on here of this happening to joint accounts
No money can be paid in or out fortunately dad had an unregestered EPA for mum , so within a short space of time all was sorted

I advise you to think seriously about getting LPA.s for both finance and property and health and welfare LPA's
You dont need a solicitor to complete or register the forms,so you can save some money their if you feel able to do it yourself

Another real good reason for having a Lpa for finance and property, is that if a person loses capacity and their is no LPA or EPA in place
then you may well have to go down the route of Deputyship which is a whole different ball game
As it is far far more expensive, I believe you have to take out some sort of insurance or create some sort of fund but not really sure as never had to go down that route
also you have to keep accurate accounts, keep receipts and send them in each year to be checked, their are also yearly fees and if the COP appoints their own deputy you will see the £'s signs go up and up

In this instance your Solicitor friend may not have given you the best advice, possibly thinking of saving your MIL some money
 
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Nebiroth

Registered User
Aug 20, 2006
3,510
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MIL has recently been formally diagnosed with vascular dementia - although the signs have been there for a couple of years. Advice from the memory clinic says that it would still be possible to get POA. A solicitor friend says that since one of her children can sign on Mum's current account that all that really needs to be done is to get Mum to put one or more of her children as signatories on her building society account.


There are two types of Power of Attorney; one deals with Health and Welfare, the other with Financial. I'll look at Financial first. They are both referred to as Lasting Powers of Attorney.

An LPA is granted by a donor - in this case your mum. The LPA nominates one or more persons called attorneys. An attorney is able to do most of what the donor could do in financial terms, in other words, pay bills, access bank and savings accounts and so on. The donor may, if they wish, put restrictions of the attorney's authority in the LPA, otherwise the attorney can do virtually everything the donor themselves could do. This includes receiving the state benefits of the donor and using the money to pay bills, for example, or even applying for new benefits. One of the few limits is that attorneys generally require a specific sanction from the Office of the Public Guardian for very large transactions or the sale of a property.

As you can see, being an attorney is powerful and flexible. Being a signatory on your mum's building society account is extremely limited - it just gives you a limited access to one specific account and technically speaking does not give you the right to control the account - if you were an attorney you could.

Having a Power of Attorney is usually seen as highly desirable - a sort of insurance policy that you hope you will not need but will be glad of if the need arises. It really does make things much easier, espescially if your mum had to go into residential care and you (or someone else) had to manage all of her affairs. Most official forms, for example, have a section marked "Tick here if you are filling in this form on someone else's behalf and you have power of attorney" - this would be accepted without question.

Ultimately, if you find you need the powers of an attorney but there is no LPA, then you would have to apply to the Court of Protection to be made a Deputy. This process is lengthy, complicated and expensive and Deputies do not have the full powers of an attorney.

The other LPA is Health and Welfare. It lets the attorney make some decisions, for example, a Do Not Resuscitate instruction. The attorney's decision is legally enforcible and doctors must comply with it. Otherwise, relatives can only issue opinions, and doctors are under no obligation to comply with those.

I don;t think it is possible to apply for Deputyship powers that are the equivalent of a Health and Welfare attorney. Deputyship is just for financial stuff.

Mum signed over her house to her three children many years ago.
Having read about difficulties of not having POA on this site I wondered if anyone had any thoughts about this. What if Mum needs medical assistance at a future date and refuses - if there is no POA, does that mean going for a section?
Many thanks in advance for your help

A health and welfare can make some decsions. However, the only way to force someoneone to enter hospital or to take medications involuntarily is a section under the Mental Health Act.

I was also concerned by the ide aof your mum "signing oiver her house". If you mean she simply gave it away, this may not protect it in the way you think and it also has inheritance tax implications, particularly if she remains living in it.
 
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TracyH

Registered User
Feb 25, 2013
5
0
Lpa

You need to get LPA done asap. There's one that covers everything. Initially
I got free legal advice from my local solicitor and they helped me through everything, I ended up getting the work done through them, it cost about £1000.
My Dad had a brain bleed and is now brain damaged, some days hes lucid and others he's not there at all. I spoke to Dads doctor about this and he knew that I wanted LPA for my Dad not for my personal gain, he helped a lot but I did keep badgering him.
I now have LPA however getting it registered with Dads bank was so difficult too. Just keep going with it and use the support you have around you.
I felt sometimes like I was banging my head against a brick wall in an already difficult situation.
Good luck.
 

stanleypj

Registered User
Dec 8, 2011
10,712
0
North West
There are two types of Power of Attorney; one deals with Health and Welfare, the other with Financial. I'll look at Financial first. They are both referred to as Lasting Powers of Attorney.

An LPA is granted by a donor - in this case your mum. The LPA nominates one or more persons called attorneys. An attorney is able to do most of what the donor could do in financial terms, in other words, pay bills, access bank and savings accounts and so on. The donor may, if they wish, put restrictions of the attorney's authority in the LPA, otherwise the attorney can do virtually everything the donor themselves could do. This includes receiving the state benefits of the donor and using the money to pay bills, for example, or even applying for new benefits. One of the few limits is that attorneys generally require a specific sanction from the Office of the Public Guardian for very large transactions or the sale of a property.

As you can see, being an attorney is powerful and flexible. Being a signatory on your mum's building society account is extremely limited - it just gives you a limited access to one specific account and technically speaking does not give you the right to control the account - if you were an attorney you could.

Having a Power of Attorney is usually seen as highly desirable - a sort of insurance policy that you hope you will not need but will be glad of if the need arises. It really does make things much easier, espescially if your mum had to go into residential care and you (or someone else) had to manage all of her affairs. Most official forms, for example, have a section marked "Tick here if you are filling in this form on someone else's behalf and you have power of attorney" - this would be accepted without question.

Ultimately, if you find you need the powers of an attorney but there is no LPA, then you would have to apply to the Court of Protection to be made a Deputy. This process is lengthy, complicated and expensive and Deputies do not have the full powers of an attorney.

The other LPA is Health and Welfare. It lets the attorney make some decisions, for example, a Do Not Resuscitate instruction. The attorney's decision is legally enforcible and doctors must comply with it. Otherwise, relatives can only issue opinions, and doctors are under no obligation to comply with those.

I don;t think it is possible to apply for Deputyship powers that are the equivalent of a Health and Welfare attorney. Deputyship is just for financial stuff.



A health and welfare can make some decsions. However, the only way to force someoneone to enter hospital or to take medications involuntarily is a section under the Mental Health Act.

I was also concerned by the ide aof your mum "signing oiver her house". If you mean she simply gave it away, this may not protect it in the way you think and it also has inheritance tax implications, particularly if she remains living in it.

Nebiroth, I wanted to PM you about this. Your inbox seems to be full.
 

mug

Registered User
Feb 22, 2013
4
0
Hi, My brother and I are going to see a solicitor regarding POA for Mum, He lives in the UK and I live abroad but will be moving back to the UK within the next 6 months. I have a UK address which I will be returning to, should I register the POA at that address or my overseas address, Will I still be able to share POA with my brother even though I live abroad at the moment. Can anyone help?
 

Saffie

Registered User
Mar 26, 2011
22,513
0
Near Southampton
Deputies do not have the full powers of an attorney.
As Deputy for my husband, it would be helpful if you could tell me what powers a Deputy does not have that an attourney does as I haven't come across one yet.
However, I'd like to be prepared.
 

rosiee

Registered User
May 7, 2012
65
0
Hi,

I've an LPA for Mum but had Deputy order for my Dad.

The Deputy order is much more expensive to do, takes longer to sort out (it took a year to do Dad's, I know I was unlucky), and once you have it you're supervised and have to fill in reports. In addition you have to pay a annual bond in case you defraud the donor and pay the court an annual amount for the previlage of going through it all. The only people that made money out of my Dad was the courts and solicitor.

You don't have to do any of that with a POA, (or pay ongoing costs) although the OPG can ask for accounts if they have concerns.

You can only have a POA if the donor has capacity, if not you have to go down the Deputy order route.

i recommend you avoid the Deputy order and get a LPA if at all possible.

In addition I would be very concerned at adding someone to an account, and I think the OPG would be too. It opens up all sorts of risk of accusation of miss use of money, not that I'm suggesting that being done here.

Also the tax man and the benefits office would consider the money and interest to belong equally to each signator, which could impact tax & benefits.

My personal option but I think you have to be very careful with these things.

Sorry also meant to say there's no difference in the powers, just the work involved.
 

jenniferpa

Registered User
Jun 27, 2006
39,442
0
As Deputy for my husband, it would be helpful if you could tell me what powers a Deputy does not have that an attourney does as I haven't come across one yet.
However, I'd like to be prepared.

I think Nebiroth is referring to the fact that often a deputyship application specifies the actions you can take with regard to financial matters, while an LPA is normally (but not always) more open ended.

In your situation, you probably wouldn't have had to make that extra application to sell the chalet. So I suppose it's more accurate to say, there are things you can do with an LPA without reapplying to the courts as you have to with a Deputyship.

If this didn't make sense I apologise - I've just come back from the dentist and I have a jaw full of novocaine which makes me a bit wooly.
 

Saffie

Registered User
Mar 26, 2011
22,513
0
Near Southampton
In your situation, you probably wouldn't have had to make that extra application to sell the chalet. So I suppose it's more accurate to say, there are things you can do with an LPA without reapplying to the courts as you have to with a Deputyship.
I think that I would probably have had to have applied to the COP to sell the chalet even with an LPA as I had to appoint a Trustee to act on my husband's behalf in the sale.

The sale of the chalet was the reason I applied for deputyship in the first place and in actual fact the appointment of the Trustee and permission to go ahead with the sale was given before I received my deputyship. When I rang to ask why I hadn't received the Deputyship papers, they were surprised that I wanted them as they thought the application had been to sell the chalet! That was the extra bit - the other way round!
 

Mariella

Registered User
Feb 27, 2013
17
0
Deputies not the same as POA

As Deputy for my husband, it would be helpful if you could tell me what powers a Deputy does not have that an attourney does as I haven't come across one yet.
However, I'd like to be prepared.

Ive been a deputy for my mum for 6 years. All my mothers liquid assets were transferred into a bank account that gives well below good rates of interest where it sits loosing money. We are asked to submit accounts every year, in the same way you have to the HMRC. You are not allowed to spend any money unless you can support why you have spent it, and this normally requires a detailed explanation. Now that my mother's money is dwindling, my brother and I looked into whether we could make 'gifts' to my mothers grandchildren, which we were told would be seen as suspicious from the COP. Avoid at all costs not having POA as its a nightmare that gives you no powers what so ever. Sorry to sound so bitter about it but after 6 years of dealing with them I don't have anything favourable to say about this system.:mad:
 

stanleypj

Registered User
Dec 8, 2011
10,712
0
North West
As is so often the case, it appears that people have had very different experiences of the Court of Protection.

It's easy to see how such disparate practice arises when you are dealing with different Local Authorities but as there's only one Court....................

Very worrying.
 

Saffie

Registered User
Mar 26, 2011
22,513
0
Near Southampton
Now that my mother's money is dwindling, my brother and I looked into whether we could make 'gifts' to my mothers grandchildren, which we were told would be seen as suspicious from the COP
I would imagine that these must have been quite large monetary gifts as I give cheques from my husband to my children and grandchildren every birthday and at Christmas. I declared each and every one of them on my report and it was accepted by the OPG without question.

To give away someone's capital is quite a big thing to do and the CoP were probably doing their job in protecting your mother's interests.That is of course what they are supposed to be doing - we are simply deputising for them. To be honest, I would think it would be frowned upon even with an LPA rather than a deputyship in place.

Stanley, it really isn't a massive problem. If you just think that the CoP and OPG are about protecting the vulnerable, it is easier to understand. They will even protect their charge from the LA - as you can see from my post about my visitor today - which can't be bad!
 
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