St John's Wort

[Brenda230]

I am a carer, and stress is causing me to sleep badly. I used St John's wort for 3 months, but had heard that it shouldn't be taken long term because of possible liver damage or somesuch, so I stopped for a couple of months, and the very poor sleep patterns came back.

I have tried to research it briefly but found only that 4 people in a study had kidney damage. 4 isn't many in a study of thousands, so I wondered if it would be safe to take it after all?
I've currently gone back on it, and sleeping better already. It works really quickly.

Does anyone have any information about St John's Wort and its possible dangers?

 

[Nebiroth]

Only to comment that "herbal remedies" can contain powerful active substances - they are in essence drugs although they are not labelled as such. Because of the way the law works, such "supplements" are not exposed to the very rigorous tests for safety and efficacy that items classed as "medicines" are.

Unfortunately, many people form the opinion that something being a "supplement" or "natural remedy" must, by definition, be harmless and - even worse - that it is safe to take in combination with other medications or that unlimited quantities can be taken without harmful effect.

Personally I would be inclined to check with your GP and seek their opinion - there is certainly evidence to suggest that SJW can be an effective anti-depressant, however, for a variety of reasons it may not be suitable to you. If you do decide to continue it is very important to keep to the suggested dosages and be watchful for any side-effects that crop up.

 

[massolina]

Try Kalms instead they work for me actually better than SJW.

 

[jeany123]

Be very careful if you decide to take kalms or anything similar, i wrote in another thread that when we were moving into this bungalow i tried them because I could't sleep they made me hallucinate, I thought that there were people in the house during the night and and my son put the light off in the hall as I was dropping off to sleep and nothing would convince me that the lights hadn't blown,I would never take them again they may suit some people but not me .


Jeany x

 

[jenniferpa]

Just to be little miss echo to what Nebiroth said: just because something is herbal doesn't mean it isn't potentially as potent as something created in a lab.

 

[Brenda230]

Sjw

I am very well aware that herbal remedies can be dangerous which is why I was asking, and why I came off the St John's Wort after three months for a two month break without it.

I might try Kalms during my next 'off' period from the SJW. If any untoward symptoms I'll stop.

I believe my GP would suggest prescribed anti-depressants, which I don't want to take unless I'm forced. If I think I'm not coping then I'll have to and see her.

I just wondered if anyone had any more information about the safety or otherwise of St John's wort.

 

[Pheath]

I've don't know if you've tried Bach's Rescue Remedy, I find it fairly good and have never had any side-effects although only use it once a day max and not even everyday. It's helped me a little with the trauma and upset of moving dad to a Care Home and often use it before visits. Think it's herbal but echo what others say that even herbal remedies need to be used carefully and in moderation.

 

[jenniferpa]

I think Bachs are homeopathic. Probably the only thing that might be an issue with them is the alcohol that is the delivery medium.

 

[Brenda230]

Rescue Remedy

Yes I have used this, but in a different context. I've used it to calm myself if I have had to do something that makes me nervous. It does work.

I hadn't thought of it with regard to using it at night time to aid sleep.
I will try that - thanks for the idea!


I have some in the pantry so I'll post back on here and let you know tomorrow.

 

[Pheath]

Yes, anything that calms and relaxes you will always be conducive to sleep. They also do a Bach's Rescue Remedy for Kids that is alcohol free although not sure if it's as strong. Good luck.

 

[CollegeGirl]

I believe my GP would suggest prescribed anti-depressants, which I don't want to take unless I'm forced.

Hi Brenda,

Years ago I was depressed and went to see the doctor. She wanted me to take anti-depressants, but (at that time) I didn't want them and said I'd rather try SJW. Her answer was the SJW contains the same substance as the anti-depressants (I think she said it was a natural form of prozac)! I don't know if she was correct, but this gave me food for thought at the time.

Having said that, I have taken SJW in the past, had no side effects, took them for a couple of months, and they did make me feel better. I don't know about longer-term use though. I certainly didn't have any trouble stopping them, so they can't have been addictive.

Kalms gave me diarrhoea

 

[jenniferpa]

Kalms gave me diarrhoea

Not quite the right name under the circumstances.

The thing about SJW is that I believe your GP is correct about it having much the same active ingredients as prescription anti-depressants with, in my opinion, a major downside - you don't necessarily know exactly how much of the active ingredient you are getting because there is little standardization. This means you are far more likely to be taking the wrong amount.

While I understand why someone might choose not to take ADs because they don't want to put a drug into their body, I don't understand why someone would think it was better to take something like this which is also a drug in that it is pharmacologically active. I mean it might have a role but only under medical supervision simply because it is a drug.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/natural/329.html

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14506510

 

[Brenda230]

difference/similarity between SJW and AD

There are I suppose various types of anti depressants but SJW appears not to have the same qualities as most anti depressants. ie.

• SJW works immediately, whereas ADs take about a fortnight to 'kick in.'
• You have to be on ADs for about 6 months, whereas you can use SJW for a much shorter period.
• People report weight gain with ADs but not with SJW
• You can come off SJW immediately without trouble, whereas ADs can be addictive

Taking those factors into account, SJW seems much simpler and preferable.

However, I have read somewhere about there being something wrong with taking SJW over long periods, though 'long' was not specified.

 

[CollegeGirl]

Hi again Brenda

I think you probably need to speak to someone medical to get an answer to your query. If you really don't want to go to your doctor for fear of being bamboozled into taking anti-depressants when you don't want to, maybe you could speak to a pharmacist at a chemists? They're usually very helpful, they may be able to answer your specific question.

Or is there an on-line doctor-and-answer forum somewhere that might be able to help?

Does the leaflet in the SJW box tell you anything about long-term use? I would have thought that if there were significant dangers they would be stated.

I hope you get an answer to set your mind at rest, if this is your preferred choice.

(By the way, when I did eventually go onto anti-depressants just before Christmas last year, I started to feel better after six days, so effects can be pretty quick, not necessarily as long as a fortnight. I have had weight gain, but have put that down to comfort eating, which I do a lot of! so don't know if it could be related to the tablets. As to the ADs being addictive, I have occasionally forgotten to take the odd one, with no adverse effects and haven't even realised I'd forgotten until the next day, so I don't think the ones I'm on are particularly addictive - for me, anyway [citalopram]. I resisted ADs for ages, trying lots of other things first but realised I had to try them when I found myself crying on my way out of work for no reason other than I was going home to an empty house and couldn't bear the thought. I sincerely wish I'd gone on them sooner and saved myself months of anguish. Of course my situation is still the same, and I still get down at times and I still worry myself sick over everything that's going on, but I can honestly say that I don't have the same heavy cloud over my head, a feeling of doom and gloom over me constantly, my mam and dad aren't always the first thing that pop into my head when I wake up in the morning, or when I wake up several times each night. I no longer get the horrible physical symptoms I was getting, and wasn't coping with - palpitations, tingling in my arms, a wet-fish-slapped feeling at the back of my neck and over my head [most bizarre], nausea, etc etc that I had this time last year. All that has eased.)

I'm not trying to sell you ADs! Just trying to point out that it may not be as bad to go on them as you think. I saw it as a sign of failure, but now I feel I was wrong and know that they're helping me. But obviously they're not for everyone.

Good luck in your quest for an answer! Let us know if you find out, because I'm sure there will be other people who would also like to know.

Best wishes x

 

[Nebiroth]

I am very well aware that herbal remedies can be dangerous which is why I was asking, and why I came off the St John's Wort after three months for a two month break without it.

I might try Kalms during my next 'off' period from the SJW. If any untoward symptoms I'll stop.

I believe my GP would suggest prescribed anti-depressants, which I don't want to take unless I'm forced. If I think I'm not coping then I'll have to and see her.

I just wondered if anyone had any more information about the safety or otherwise of St John's wort.

There is very little qualitative difference between St John's Wort and an anti-depressant tablet (in fact many prescription drugs are highly refined plant derivatives)

SJW might be "herbal" or a "supplement" but it still works just like a drug in that it contains an active agent that alters the chemistry of the brain.

I always have a suspicion of such remedies since they undergo far less stringent testing than prescription drugs. Many people seem to make the assumption that being "natural" or "supplement" makes something better or safer, for some reason. Such things have just as much capacity to produce side-effects, too.

If SJW were as effective as you say later on, then it would long ago been the first choice for doctors to prescribe and would have displaced the other anti-depressants. It hasn;t because in scientifically conducted trials using things like double-blind tests (where neither the person taking the drug or the person conducting the test knows who is taking what) it has not shown itself to be superior.

Anti-depressants, of any type, can;t have an immediate effect - brain chemistry just doesn't work that way. I suspect that a lot of people taking SJW feel better because they believe it will make them feel better.

There is, of course, nothing wrong in that.

 

[Brenda230]

Actually it's the lack of sleep

Anti-depressants, of any type, can;t have an immediate effect - brain chemistry just doesn't work that way. I suspect that a lot of people taking SJW feel better because they believe it will make them feel better.

.

I am taking the SJW because it helps me sleep. Whilst insomnia can be a sign of depression, so far I haven't slipped into depression. I know this as I had it once, many years ago. I feel that if I can sleep ok, I will be ok.

I will keep on researching the SJW, because I think it is pretty good stuff in the short term. I will post my findings on here, because, as someone else said, others might be wondering about it too.

I do know about herbs and I am aware that there is stuff in the garden that could kill, and all the rest of it. I grew up with all of that.
I am also aware that some of them are so useful that they are synthesised and standardised as medicines. I also know that if I were to take herbs straight from the garden I could be taking a different dose each time and the strength will be different according to how much rain we've had etc etc.
Reputable suppliers of herbal remedies do standardise their products.

I'd sort of hoped someone else on the forum might have done this research, but as they haven't, I will try and get some 'proper' information for you all.

 

[Christinec]

I wonder whether it may be worth while speaking to your doctor. I have a friend who has taken SJW for many years and the doctor checks every couple of years with blood tests for liver/kidney changes. Her GP actually was quite supportive of the decision to take these.

A few years ago I read that some countries SJW is used a prescription drug.

Good luck with the research.

On the drugs v natural remedies interesting that the main active ingredient of asprin comes from willow.

 

[jenniferpa]

If your want to access to the latest research you might want to try medscape.com. It does require you to register but it is free.

I would take issue with your comment about reputable suppliers of herbal supplements standardizing their product. While you may be fortunate to hit on a supplier who standardizes batch to batch, you should be aware that many do not. Further, as the link I gave you above indicates, "However, consistency is not apparent between brands and most products have inaccurate label claims. On average, most labels overestimate the hypericin and pseudohypericin content by a factor of almost two.".

 

[CollegeGirl]

Hi again Brenda

So sorry, of course, re-reading your original post I have realised you take it to help you sleep rather than depression. My apologies for missing the point and going off at a tangent!

I don't know about dosages being standardised etc like other posters maybe do, but I hope you do find information to help you with your query.

Good luck for some help with your sleeping problem. I don't have any answers on that one because I too don't sleep well - even before all our current problems I've not been a good sleeper for years.