Mobile homes and funding problems

[ChrisH]

Sorry - another long one. The ball that began rolling yesterday regarding moving my mum from respite in Worcs. to permanent care in Devon looks like it might be in for a bumpy ride. It seems there could be a funding problem because my parents bought a mobile home 20 odd years ago. If I've understood what the SW said today here's the gist of it:

- mum has less than £22250 in savings
- mum has a property
- therefore, under normal circumstances she'd be classified as self-funding - the council would pay her fees and once the property is sold they would be paid back out of the proceeds. This is done by putting a "legal charge" on the property.

BUT if that property happens to be a mobile home they say they can't put a "legal charge" on it (don't know why) and therefore she can't be forced to sell it and so she becomes 'non self-funding'.

As she is already in a council funded respite place and therefore considered 'safe', there will be no urgency to sort out funding which means the lovely room in the lovely home I've got lined up for her could be lost. This is because there is also a difference in the contract price between Devon and Worcs of £19/week that a 3rd party would have to pay. (Which I could manage just about - low income and 2 kids wanting to go to uni). Not sure if that would be on top of the difference between Devon's contract rate of £381 and the cost of the room (currently £400 - going up to heaven knows what in April).

The SW is sympathetic and will talk to their solicitors tomorrow regarding whether it would be legal for mum to pay me back the top up (£19 bit) out of the sale of the property. Also whether there is some other document (apart from a 'legal charge') I could sign saying mum promises to sell the property and pay them back.

She is also going to argue that the CH she's in at present isn't really suitable for mum as she's not as bad as many of the other residents and being there could cause her to deteriorate more quickly and then she'll need more expensive care and it will cost them more in the long run.

Needless to say I am now thoroughly p****d off at the thought of losing the room. I can pay £100 per week to reserve it but of course the home can't keep that up for more than a couple of weeks and I've no idea how long this is going to take to sort out.

If mum has to stay where she is she'll have no visitors except me and I won't be able to go as often because they'll stop the Attendance Allowance and I was using some of that to help with fuel costs (600 mile round trip every month to where she is now).

Stick your fingers in your ears cos I'm about to scream.

Chris

 

[jenniferpa]

Well if she is considered self-funding then they don't stop the attendance allowance.

Did you ask the social worker what would happen if you sold the property for less than you would normally expect to get?

Incidentally what you've been told isn't exactly right with regard to the LA paying the fees and then getting paid back. If she has a property to sell but under 22500 in savings she is entitled to receive a 12 week disregard. In other words they will pay the fees for 12 week and she does not have to pay them back. It's not quite that simple because they also take her pension etc plus a tarrif income based on her actual savings.

I do think you're going to need professional advice about this and not just rely on what the social worker says.

I would want to know why they couldn't put a charge on the mobile home. They may not want to but can't? There may be a valid legal reason for this but I'd want to check that, personally.

 

[ChrisH]

Hi Jennifer

I was told about the 12 week disregard but it's going to take more than 12 weeks to sell the place. There are at least 6 other homes on the site for sale at present and no one is even looking let alone buying. What happens after the 12 weeks if you can't sell? I wonder if the legal charge problem has something to do with the homeowner not actually owning the land the thing is sited on as she has to pay ground-rent. Also whenever they are sold the site owner takes 10% of the sale price in commission (plus another 3% if you do the sale through them - right bunch of ripoff merchants).

I think they're saying if they can't take her home into account and her capital is therefore less than the limit she would then be council funded so AA would stop (if I understand correctly). I assume they could then more or less dictate where she lives as we can't afford any top-up fees.

The SW also mentioned deferred payment but said she'll have to check that out with their legal dept.

 

[jenniferpa]

As I understand it, an asset is worth what someone is prepared to pay for it. If it was considered unsaleable at any price then it wouldn't have a value and thus your mother would come under the social services funded label. If that happened, yes the AA would stop. You know, one of the things they have to consider when deciding on a placement is not just whether a home can provide the basics of care but also whether it can fulfill other important needs. It would seem to me that having a loving daughter to visit should be considered important when it comes to deciding where she should be. Also, while they may say "this is what we pay" they have to pay more if she has needs that can't be met in the homes that will accept that fee - this seems to be the route the social worker is attempting to take. Social needs are extremely important when it comes to dementia.

 

[Sandy]

As I understand it, an asset is worth what someone is prepared to pay for it. If it was considered unsaleable at any price then it wouldn't have a value and thus your mother would come under the social services funded label.

It seems local authorities only look at capital assets, such as residential property. It looks like, in law, mobile homes are classified as movable property and not residential property. So it 's like Chris's mum owns a very large and expensive car (or oil painting or diamond necklace).

And at the moment, the government has not yet taken the step of making people sell their personal property to fund their own care.

Of course, as soon as the mobile home is sold and the proceeds banked, Chris's mum would be over the threshold and self-funding.

I have no idea what the solution is - but it does seem clear that most of the parties involved would benefit from a quick decision that would move Chris's mum to the care home in her village.

It would be ideal if the care home would settle for the Devon rate or even split the difference by dropping it's fee by £9.50 and maybe Chris could make up the other £9.50?

Hope a solution is found soon for all your sakes.

Take care,

Sandy

 

[Jackie]

My mum's previous SW was fantastic and helped with the price neogiation on the home - might be worth asking

 

[ChrisH]

Hi all
Thanks for your input.

Sandy - that's an interesting explanation about the home being a 'moveable asset' and not 'residential'. I'll just hook it up to my car and tow it down the motorway and park it next to the residential home then mum can live in it an be cared for by the staff. Problem solved Yes, in theory they can be moved but I personally wouldn't want to live in one that had been taken apart for transport and then put back together again. (They come in 2 halves). If it's not 'residential' I wonder what they think she's been doing in it for the last 22 years?

If they won't allow her to move I don't think I'll put it on the market, then they can just go whistle for their money. I suppose they'd still be able to claw it back if I sold it after she's gone.

Jennifer - I think they are going to try for more money and I think the SW is good, even though I've never met her. She was apparently on the phone for 45 mins today speaking with the CH trying every angle to get mum down here.

The position as of this evening is that mum's case is due to go to the panel next Tuesday (unless an 'emergency' case comes up which will of course take precedence). The home will be notified on Wed. am (4th Mar). That is the final deadline for mum getting the room as they have other interested parties and can't delay any longer.

I understand their positions but if the panel is delayed - and she's no longer an 'urgent' case as she's safe - the room is lost and she's back to the bottom of the list. If they then decide she can come down here I will have to scramble around looking for somewhere else as apparently the funding is only available for a limited time. That will throw another spanner in the works as the only other places I'll be looking at are in Cornwall - the border is at the end of my road. I have no idea what the difference in the contract price will be then.

I really don't want to move her down to somewhere I'm not really happy with just to get her here and then move her again if another room comes up at my first choice home. This could be several months down the line and if she deteriorates at the rate she has since Christmas she'll probably really need an EMI place by then.

I'm going to be a nervous wreck by next Tuesday.

Chris

 

[Sandy]

Hi Chris,

If they won't allow her to move I don't think I'll put it on the market, then they can just go whistle for their money. I suppose they'd still be able to claw it back if I sold it after she's gone.

I don't think that you have to worry about them trying to claw it back (but don't take my word, I'm not a solicitor). Because of the way the mobile home is classified, it's not a "capital asset" (conventional buildings and land are), so they won't be coming after the proceeds from it after she's gone.

But if you sell it before she's gone, the cash will become an asset and can be included in the calculation to assess her funding status.

So from one point of view, it might be worth not selling the home before she's gone. The only counterbalancing costs will be the rent paid for the mobile home's space and any insurance and other costs associated with keeping the home in good condition. You could even possibly offer it as a holiday rental, if the income generated didn't put her over the limit - and you could live with the hassle (there maybe local firms which could manage this).

It may be well worth getting some professional legal/financial advice on this point.

Take care,

Sandy

 

[ChrisH]

Hi Sandy
I'd thought of renting it out but they have loads of rules re these homes and one is that you can't sub-let.

If they won't budge re moving her down at least I'll have somewhere to stay when I visit. The dilema would be if I did put it on the market and it did sell, say a year or so down the line, and she's too far gone to move at that time, I'll have nowhere to stay, and at over 4 hours each way I couldn't go up and back in a day unless hubby shared the driving.

Still, there's no point in speculating as it might all work out ok on Tuesday.

Chris

 

[ChrisH]

Forgot to say I phoned mum today and guess what - she's going home tomorrow. She told me that she'd been told she could go to the office at 4pm to collect her money (obviously forgot they've got her keys as well) and she'll make sure she has a good breakfast tomorrow morning, then pack her things and off she'll go - on the bus - or maybe a taxi.

I'm getting really good at playing along with her now.

Phoned the manager straight after who said mum was already sitting outside the office door. I wonder what excuse they'll give this time for not being able to open the safe. And her money is still at the other home as they said they have none in the safe.

Mum had complained to me that there is no one there to have a conversation with and I mentioned this to the manager. She told me there are some relatively with-it clients and she introduced mum to one the other day but within a few minutes mum had wandered off. She apparently can't sit still for 5 mins. Poor mum, she just doesn't realise that it's very difficult for anyone to have a conversation with her these days.

Chris