Court of Protection some queries

[Selinacroft]

Hi Kevini
Thanks- I found my way there this afternoon and have already printed off all the forms. I thought best plan probably to fill them in and get brother to check before I submit them. Hoping I have most of the necessary paperwork to hand as I keep all the paperwork for the household anyway.
Thebearsmummy-sorry missed your post earlier. Dad does still have lucid moments but the chances of them coinciding with any prearranged apt are not that likely. I think I've missed the boat for POA

 

[canary]

One of the things to make sure that you put in the application to the CoP is to ask for the authority to sell any property that your dad might own, even if you dont intend to sell it straight away. That way it keeps your options open because if you decide to sell later and havent got the authority you would have to apply for permission and it would have to go through the courts again, taking time and another £400 (or whatever it is then).

BTW, be prepared - there is more paperwork after your application has been accepted, although the application forms the bulk of it.

Dad does still have lucid moments but the chances of them coinciding with any prearranged apt are not that likely. I think I've missed the boat for POA

If he still gets lucid moments and there is unlikely to be family disputes then you could always download the POA forms and do them yourself when he has a lucid moment. You have to get someone to witness his signatures and it has to be someone who has known him for more than 2 years, but a friend or neighbour is fine - it doesnt have to be a doctor or anything

 

[Delphie]

Thanks Canary- I can't see how a solicitor could help fill in the forms - they would have to ask me all the questions in the first place. I've spent years filling in forms, so a bit tedious but probably the way forward.

That was exactly my thinking. The forms, which are the same whoever fills them in, ask for information (names, addresses, list of assets, people to inform etc.) which the solicitor would have had to get from me, so I just got on with it. There's also a helpline to call if anything is unclear and additional information online. So although the forms are 'legal', no legal training is necessary to complete them.

I'd never tell someone to not use a solicitor if they feel more comfortable handing things over, but it's definitely worth having a look at the forms first, to fully understand what the bill will be for.

 

[Selinacroft]

Thanks Delphie and thanks Old Dog. I really do feel that the moment has passed now for POA, as social services and community mental health feel there is no capacity, it would be rather unfair of me to ask a GP to confirm there is capacity. I think you had a sensible DR and mum and were lucky on the day.
I'm part way through the forms already and if I'm struggling to know what to write in some areas , I'm quite sure a solicitor wouldn't have a clue as he wouldn't even have met my dad where it comes to why there is no capacity etc etc. I think if I do the lion's share of it and then get brother's input we will have it covered.

 

[Pete R]

Selinacroft,

When I did PoA for my Mom she was in hospital and her understanding of what she was signing was questionable at best. I did not use a Dr nor is one necessary. For the witnesses I used people who knew Mom and me and were happy with what I was doing. Even my sister (we do not get on at all) who lives abroad agreed and although she wanted to be joint Attorney finally settled with being the Deputy should anything happen to me.

I understand your Father has in the past refused to sign any forms for you which seems to be more for stubbornness rather than lack of trust. If you can surround yourself with the right people that believe it is the right thing to do then it has to be worth trying to get the LPA's completed.

They do not have the same onerous forms to fill in and they do not ask any questions regarding finances. There is also no yearly report to file and they are very much cheaper. Doing it this way also meant I could get LPA for Finance and also for Health which have been a godsend in battling LA's and SW's.

 

[jugglingmum]

Pete R is right - it is worth a try.

My brother used his GP as my mum was registered as a temporary resident, and the GP would have signed it without much persuasion, but I hadn't realised the neighbour bit, and if it is only you and your brother involved then it is worth a try.

Have to agree that the health and welfare POA is useful as well if you can get it

 

[Selinacroft]

Thank you- I will discuss with brother later. I was going to make apt to speak to GP next week so I can approach the subject then. Meanwhile I will continue with forms for deputyship- just in case.

If one were to be POA, can you stil make gratuitous family payments or does being POA prevent you from paying yourself in any capacity whatsoever.

Would social services and community mental health put in objection if they have seen dad when he was lacking capacity on a bad day?

Could you clarify that I would need an independant third party to witness POA besides my brother and myself?

 

[Pete R]

If one were to be POA, can you stil make gratuitous family payments or does being POA prevent you from paying yourself in any capacity whatsoever.

This would have to be written into the LPA. There is a place to add almost any kind of stipulation. If not you would have to apply to the CoP to have it authorised. GFP's can only be made with the permission of the Court.

Would social services and community mental health put in objection if they have seen dad when he was lacking capacity on a bad day??

Highly unlikely unless they suspect you of wrongdoing in the handling of affairs. There is no need for them to know till you have it registered at the OPG. Your Father only has to understand what he is signing at that moment. It matters not if he was having a bad day before or after when SS or anyone else sees him.

Could you clarify that I would need an independant third party to witness POA besides my brother and myself

You need a witness to your Father's signature. This can be anyone over 18 and not an Attorney or Deputy Attorney.

If you father does not want anyone told then you will need 2 certificate providers (one can the witness as well) who have known your Father for at least 2 years as more than an acquaintance. These cannot be relatives. They have to affirm that your Father understands what he is doing, wants your to be an attorney and is not being pressured. Either can be a professional such as GP or Solicitor.

 

[Selinacroft]

Just to clarify, brother, myself and one witness to father's signature whose known him for 2 years .
Does that witness need to be outside of the family or just not a beneficiary from any potential inheritance?

 

[Pete R]

Just to clarify, brother, myself and one witness to father's signature- could witness be grandson (over 18) or are family excluded?

You need you and your Brother if you are both going to be Attorneys (sometimes better to have one and the other a replacement).

Plus a witness to your Father's signature (can be anyone over 18, not you or Brother but can be Grandson).

Plus 2 Certificate providers who cannot be the Attorneys (you or Brother) or family but can be the witness.

If you have got on with the Deputyship forms OK this should be a tad easier but only for Finance. There is another for Health.....
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...d-register-your-lasting-power-of-attorney.pdf

 

[Selinacroft]

sorry to be sounding a bit bewildered at this stage but the 2 certificate providers are needed ASWELL? I can't imagine how to get 5 separate people in a room with dad and have any sense out of him- even on a good day he would retreat into his shell and pretend to be asleep.

 

[nitram]

If you father does not want anyone told then you will need 2 certificate providers (one can the witness as well) who have known your Father for at least 2 years as more than an acquaintance.

Using the latest application forms, 'people to be told' are now 'people to notify' and it is optional whether you have any or not even with a sole certificate provider.

Section 6
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...d-register-your-lasting-power-of-attorney.pdf

 

[Selinacroft]

Thank you nitram- that up to date form is very helpful, and that only one certificate provider is needed. That lessens the burden somewhat.

So it seems to summarise - my main issue will be finding someone who has known dad for 2 years and is happy to sign the certificate that dad is happy with the arrangements and understands in broad terms.

 

[Pete R]

At this point I think you should seek some professional help. You need someone there in front of you to explain it carefully and clearly.

 

[nitram]

my main issue will be finding someone who has known dad for 2 years and is happy to sign the certificate that dad is happy with the arrangements and understands in broad terms.

Is your dad able to sign?

Doing the application on line is easy
https://www.lastingpowerofattorney.service.gov.uk/home
you are guided through the process and not allowed to miss any obligatory entry or make inconsistent entries.
You can even pay on line (£82 per LPA) print the forms, get them signed and post off.

It's a long thread and you may have explained more about

Have been advised by Social Services it is a good idea to get Court of Protection "to protect myself"

Exactly what SS meant when they said 'get court of protection' is debatable, some SS are not very well 'clued up'

If there is no chance of any dispute from family members and if there is somebody who has known both yourself and your dad for several years and is prepared to honestly quiz your dad that he fully understands the implications of granting an LPA and is convinced that your dad is not being influenced in any way I would be tempted to go for two LPAs.

 

[Selinacroft]

hi thanks nitram, the plan at the moment is J and S POA with brother.
Many thanks for everybody' s enormous s help- this forum is amazing.

 

[nitram]

the plan at the moment is J and S POA with brother.

If they are going to be 'vanilla' applications without any extra conditions added it's straightforward.
Including what are in effect extra clauses can be dangerous, they can have unintended legal implications.

 

[theunknown]

My situation was very similar to yours DeMartin - things were dropped on me out of the blue (although I'm in no way saying I didn't contribute to that, as I wanted to believe everything was 'normal'). It turned out we were past the stage of being granted PoA and I had to go through the Court of Protection to get deputyship, so I could pay my mum's outstanding bills and use her finances to pay a top-up fee to the care home she's been in for three years. I wish things had been different, but how do you have this conversation with a parent when you're used to them being in charge all your life?

 

[theunknown]

By the way, we paid out £17,000 over several months before I got deputyship. After that the money was paid back to us.

 

[Selinacroft]

If they are going to be a 'vanilla' applications without any extra conditions added it's straightforward.
Including what are in effect extra clauses can be dangerous, they can have unintended legal implications

Thanks again Nitram, I had been thinking that myself. I do have some savings and can always fit in a bit of extra work somewhere or other. I may go for the "vanilla" version and live frugally. I fear we may be looking at 1 or 2 years absolutely max. Dad is 91 with multiple health issues , DNR, frail etc etc. I have wondered many times this year if he is "end of life" or not. I think it wise to avoid complications at this stage, so long as I can pay the essential house and care bills plus some food it should be ok.