Financial matters.

[informatorchori]

Hello.

Can anyone give some advice? I am sat on the fence! My Father-in-law (has dementia) has recently moved in with us. My wife and her brother have power of attorney. I am responsible for the financial side of our household. Our income is a modest £17,000 per annum plus a few tax credits.

My Father in law (a retired GP) has income of £51,000 (£981 per week) from his NHS pention/s.

We need to sort out a financial arrangement for his contribution to our household which consists of my wife and myself, 2 teenage children and now, my Father in Law.

I, personally, feel that a figure of £250 per week would be reasonable (our weekly running expenses of the house/mortgage etc comes to approx £750 per week). This equates to one third. Bearing in mind that a place in a care home/nursing home would be in the region of £1000 per week, I personally think that this is reasonable.

What do other people do/think? Is this reasonable? Any advice would be appreciated.

 

[meme]

Sounds perfectly fair to me....

 

[Pickles53]

Seems reasonable to me too. I would monitor your household bills and see what changes over the first few months e.g. you may find your utility bills, petrol usage or grocery bills go up more than you expect. If after (say) 6 months £250 isn't covering it, you can adjust upwards.

In addition, your father's funds should be used for anything you buy specifically for him. You may need additional safety kit or mobility aids or new bedding/towels or an extra TV in his room for instance. Same thing if you decide to hire extra help (carers, sitters...)

Do not feel guilty about any of this. You are doing an amazing thing already by having him to live with you. He would no doubt have significantly higher living costs living anywhere else, especially a care home. You're going to give him a lot of your time and energy; you should not subsidise him financially in any way.

 

[Beate]

He's getting accommodation and food etc so I guess a third is reasonable. Make sure though that he is claiming everything he is entitled to, especially Attendandance Allowance which is not means-tested but purely needs-based and could be used to pay for some of his outgoings. Clothes should be paid with his own money, as should specialist things like inco pads if he needed them, and everything do with his care.

I believe you could even get 25% off your council tax if he is on AA and is exempt due to severe mental impairment and you or your wife should be exempt as his carer (as you're not a spouse), which leaves only one adult in the house, equating to the single person discount. Ask your council for the forms.

 

[Jessbow]

Much as I think your f in law should contribute his share, I am not sure he should subsidise you. 25% would be fairer (2 adults + 2 halves are your responsibility surely?)

You figures don't look to add up - 17 k income pa, and the household runs on 750 per week? Seems unsutainable!

 

[informatorchori]

Much as I think your f in law should contribute his share, I am not sure he should subsidise you. 25% would be fairer (2 adults + 2 halves are your responsibility surely?)

You figures don't look to add up - 17 k income pa, and the household runs on 750 per week? Seems unsutainable!

#17k plus child/working tax credits, child benefit, housing benefit etc.

 

[Jessbow]

#17k plus child/working tax credits, child benefit, housing benefit etc.

...Much of which you'd lose if you declared your additional income. ( an additional undeclared 52k a year coming in undeclared could be seen as very dodgy)


( Sightly baffled home your outgoing are so high, I assumed you had a hefty mortgage or something. I do realise that isn't what is being discussed here though)

 

[Witzend]

Sounds reasonable to me.

What would be the cost of renting a basic one bed flat in your area? Just the rent, no food or bills? That can be a good guide as to whether the contribution is reasonable. Usually the contribution people mention is quite a lot less than total living-alone costs would be.

Having said that, we did not take any cash from my FiL, who lived with us for about a year, but then his income was very small and we could manage perfectly well without. If circumstances had been different I would not have felt at all bad about taking a reasonable contribution.
The money he passively saved in this way eventually helped towards his care home fees.

 

[love.dad.but..]

I agree that your FIL should contribute but also agree with Jessbow that 25% would be a fairer figure regardless of how much FIL has coming in from his pensions which may in the long term be needed for care if circumstances change and at that amount he would be totally self funding.. Am guessing that although your earned income is quite low all your other benefits bump up the income figure considerably. As attorneys they would if required have to show they can justify any figure you settle on assuming anything for his personal use is quite rightly paid for out of his personal funds. In arriving at the figure which presumably includes food does your FIL have as good an appetite as an elderly pwd as say you, your wife or 2 children who in my experience can eat loads! But you are doing a wonderful thing in sharing your home.

 

[mancmum]

The govt says it costs 12,000

The government says that bed and board cost 12,000 per year. Not sure if the link below works, but you can find the relevent information.

http://www.ageuk.org.uk/home-and-ca...ding-changes/care-cap-and-means-test-changes/


I've posted this before and I will post it again. I would be much happier if there were some sort of recognised scale of costs because this question does crop up frequently.

The thing is that as a family living with the support of in work benefits then you will be living at a lower income level of that a well off pensioner. Will your relative be happy with with frugal cooking. I did do that for a while until my Dad would be in the supermarket looking at things that I would not dream of buying - and why shouldn't he have them if it makes him happy but what do you do to the rest of the family. Does he eat steak while the others have quiche.

We have settled on a figure of 7,500 which would not even cover rent in the area we live.

However the discussion will need to be had again when the company car we use goes back to the company on retirement. at that point father's income will be 4.5 times the income that husband and I each have.

How was it before relative had dementia..did they offer to help out? I am guessing the disparity in incomes is longstanding.

I would also not rule out the possibility of paying a relative for care so long as it is done properly through the books with HMRC. In many ways by subsidising a relative with early dementia all you are doing is transferring that money to a pool to be available to be spent on care fees later on. Perhaps it would be fairest within the family for someone to be formally paid for what they are doing.

The immediate period around offering a home to a family member do not always make for the clearest thought about financial decisions and things can change very quickly. While you are currently working ..what happens if you are woken night about night.

 

[la lucia]

The government says that bed and board cost 12,000 per year. Not sure if the link below works, but you can find the relevent information.

http://www.ageuk.org.uk/home-and-ca...ding-changes/care-cap-and-means-test-changes/


I've posted this before and I will post it again. I would be much happier if there were some sort of recognised scale of costs because this question does crop up frequently.

The thing is that as a family living with the support of in work benefits then you will be living at a lower income level of that a well off pensioner. Will your relative be happy with with frugal cooking. I did do that for a while until my Dad would be in the supermarket looking at things that I would not dream of buying - and why shouldn't he have them if it makes him happy but what do you do to the rest of the family. Does he eat steak while the others have quiche.

We have settled on a figure of 7,500 which would not even cover rent in the area we live.

However the discussion will need to be had again when the company car we use goes back to the company on retirement. at that point father's income will be 4.5 times the income that husband and I each have.

How was it before relative had dementia..did they offer to help out? I am guessing the disparity in incomes is longstanding.

I would also not rule out the possibility of paying a relative for care so long as it is done properly through the books with HMRC. In many ways by subsidising a relative with early dementia all you are doing is transferring that money to a pool to be available to be spent on care fees later on. Perhaps it would be fairest within the family for someone to be formally paid for what they are doing.

The immediate period around offering a home to a family member do not always make for the clearest thought about financial decisions and things can change very quickly. While you are currently working ..what happens if you are woken night about night.

You make some good points but the government doesn't say "bed and board cost £12,000" in the linked posted it says hotel fees in a care home should be capped at £12,000 which is very different. Even as a ball park figure, that is presupposing the 'bulk' buying power of a care home.

There can't be a fixed amount applied to everyone because everyone is living in different circumstances.

When I moved in to my mother's house to look after her I gave my family, including my mother a few 'non-negotiables' which included that she had to pay for a car as she lives rurally and it would be impossible without one. I lived in London at the time and had got rid of my car because it wasn't needed. Actually no one disagreed and it's been worth its weight in gold.

On the food issue - my mother's food bills are sometimes much larger than mine. She eats about a tenners worth of puddings a week apart from anything else

On the plus, I managed to to considerably cut her utility bills - goodness knows what she was doing before but even before I changed suppliers, her electric bill fell by £200 per year even with me there. Swapping suppliers cut another £200. It can't all be the LED bulbs I installed

I think when it comes to living expenses it will probably have to be tweaked as you go along. It's really hard to work out until you have lived with it all. Just make sure you keep receipts for the big things.

 

[arielsmelody]

Does it have to be boiled down to a fixed amount per week? You could work out a split on the shopping as you go along each week and the same on utility bills, council tax etc. Then he could pay for things like transport to appointments etc as and when its needed. Keep a record of everything in a notebook as you go along.

He could pay you rent on a room, but if he only has a bedroom of his own and has to share bathroom, kitchen etc, and pay bills separately, it wouldn't be a huge amount.

 

[Shedrech]

hi informatorchori
money - always a tricky subject

I have no answer, just thoughts

it's appropriate for any adult to pay their own way - that holds for your FIL (regardless of how much his income is in comparison to anyone else's)
so calculating the extra expenses to your household of having your FIL with you and asking him to contribute is fine
and asking him to pay the expense of anything that is purely for his use and benefit is fine
accepting that he may well want to add to your household 'treats' is fine
accepting customary gifts from him is fine

contributing to your mortgage (to me) is not fine

then there's a grey area (to me) - is someone living within a household a 'guest/member of the household' or a 'paying guest/lodger' (here's where the comparison to paying care home fees or rent might come in) - in which case 'rent' paid is income
this is a link re the Rent a Room scheme, for interest
https://www.moneyadviceservice.org.uk/en/articles/rent-a-room-scheme-how-it-works-and-tax-rules#providing-meals-and-services

you definitely should not be 'out of pocket' because your FIL is living in your household

best wishes