S117 & CHC funding

[CathyMc]

Mum is on S117 aftercare funding. I've been told that she has to move care homes to one with EMI nursing care & so I have to attend a meeting about CHC funding. Can anyone advise what will happen. I know that CHC funding is difficult to get but if she is tuned down does this mean she will also lose her s117 aftercare money as well?

Any help is much appreciated

Jem

 

[Kevinl]

As far as I'm aware section 117 funding unlike CHC doesn't stop. I assume she's gone into care under a section 3 hence the s117 funding, so I don't see why they would want to change this to CHC.
Based on my experience most the patients who left the assessment unit my wife was on were send straight into EMI care under section 117, some were well enough to go back to their home with a care package funded in the normal way but I never heard CHC mentioned for full time care. Perhaps someone knows different?
If they are able to stop the s117 then turn her down for CHC what happens then?
K

 

[nitram]

She won't loose the s117 funding because of being assessed as ineligible for CHC.

The checklist/DST route should only be taken if she has significant medical problems other that the mental health ones causing her to be sectioned.

s117 eligibility is listed in the exceptions for not doing checklist/DST

Exceptions
a) Section 117. The main exception to the above is where the individual is subject to
Section 117 of the Mental Health Act 1983 and solely requires care and support for
his/her mental health aftercare needs. Section 117 applies after an individual has
been the subject of a compulsory order under the Mental Health Act 1983 (usually
section 3, but it could be a hospital order made under section 37, or a hospital
direction made under section 45A or a transfer direction made under section 47 or
48). In such situations the NHS and LA have a statutory joint responsibility to
arrange and fund the necessary support under the terms of their local arrangements
for this. An individual subject to section 117 should only be considered for NHS CHC
where they have significant healthcare needs which are not related to their mental
health aftercare needs [see Framework 118-122].

Page 9
https://www.england.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/guide-hlth-socl-care-practnrs.pdf

 

[nitram]

"If they are able to stop the s117 then turn her down for CHC what happens then?"


s117 funding for after care can be stopped.

If the person is then assessed as being ineligible for CHC they would then be in the same position as many people, either self funding or LA assisted depending on financial assessment.

6. When will my free after-care end?
The NHS and social services have to give you after-care as long as you need it. Even if you are doing well outside of hospital, you may still need after-care services to make sure you stay well.
Ending section 117 is called being ‘discharged’ from section 117. Your local clinical commissioning group (CCG) and local social services authority (LSSA) must decide that you no longer need any after-care services. They should not discharge you from section 117 when you are still getting services you need.
If staff want to discharge you from your section 117 they need to hold a meeting. They may call this a ‘section 117 discharge meeting’ or a ‘discharge meeting’. They have to invite you to this. You can bring an advocate, carer or family member if you want.
They should not discharge you from section 117 just because:
 you have been discharged from specialist mental health services, such as a community mental health team (CMHT),
 a certain length of time has passed since you left hospital,
 you go back to hospital voluntarily or under section 2,
 your community treatment order (CTO) ends, or
 you refuse after-care services.[SUP]18[/SUP]

https://www.rethink.org/resources/s/section-117-aftercare-factsheet

 

[CathyMc]

Thanks for your help everyone. I think that SS were getting confused a bit and to be honest no one seems to have a clue. I'm really surprised to be honest....but I don't know why. I've read other posts about the "experts" not really knowing what was going on but it's another thing experiencing it yourself.

All the talk about CHC funding has now stopped and they are talking about the S117. As mum is going from EMI residential to EMI nursing I don't think we will be discharged, but you never know

 

[Kevinl]

I was talking to a visitor today, her husband went from the EMI wing where he was and my wife still is to the EMI nursing wing, wheeled him down the corridor into a different wing, job done, I can't see why a change of homes is any more complicated.
I was asked to attend a funding meeting but declined as it's all section 117 so what's the point of me being there I asked.
K

 

[CathyMc]

That sounds like complete common sense. Unfortunately I'm finding that common sense is in short supply when dealing with ss etc....

 

[CathyMc]

It looks like mum will have s117 funding which I understand to be approx £595 per week. The CH said that the cost is £750 per week & will require topping up. I've read somewhere that if ss recommend a place or if there isn't a lower cost option available, then they pay the top up. Is this correct or am I completely wrong?

Thanks for any help

 

[Kevinl]

The LA are obliged legally to find him somewhere within the (invented) budget and if they can't tell you which homes these are then do like I did refuse to look at them as it's a waste of time (as I found out). Eventually they gave me some names that were within budget and my wife moved in about 6 weeks ago, it's not perfect but the staff are fantastic and essentially that's all that matters.
I think I looked at 9 places and everyone needed a top up, the highest was nearly £400 a week, the lowest about £150 so I told the social worker to up the budget or tell me the homes that fit, reluctantly she did and so far it's all working out quite well.
Along with my wife there are 3 other people there from the same assessment unit so I've known some of the other visitors for 6 months or more, we've compared notes as some of their partners/parents had been in care before and we're all pretty happy.
Getting them to pay more that they want to isn't easy if it can be done at all (I don't know anyone who has but they must be out there) I just stopped answering the social worker's calls until she stopped wasting my time and the time of all the homes I visited that were out of budget.
It's not that I wouldn't pay a top up, I could, but they don't seem to want to tell you what's in budget so presumably they don't want to overload anywhere with basic rate payers presumably so there's still rooms for the full paying self funders to subsidise them, cynical, who knows?
If, like me you're in the Greater Manchester West NHS region then I believe there are only 2 choices without a top up.
K

 

[CathyMc]

Kevin, thanks very much for your advice, it's really appreciated. I'm
In Manchester but mum is in west lancs. I'll ring sw today to check - I'm sure it will be an interesting chat

Thanks again

 

[katek]

Kevin, thanks very much for your advice, it's really appreciated. I'm
In Manchester but mum is in west lancs. I'll ring sw today to check - I'm sure it will be an interesting chat

Thanks again

This has been an interesting thread. My dad has been on section 3 for a couple of years (recently extended) and we are aware that he will be eligible for section 117 aftercare funding should he be taken off the section and have to leave hospital to go to a care home.

I have another related question. My mother is finally downsizing and selling the family home which is in their joint names. She has - as do I - power of attorney for my dad. She is buying a retirement flat which will cost about half the proceeds from the sale of the house. Her solicitor is telling her the new place must be purchased in their joint names, but I am wondering
- is that correct?
- if so, why?

He will never be able to live there. If he were to die before him, and the property is in joint names, would we be able to sell it?

 

[jaymor]

If your Mum was to sell the house, split the money, use her half to buy the property in her sole name and put your dad's half into an account in his name then that should be ok. Ask the solicitor if that would work.