Can dementia lead to lack of mental capacity?

[Norfolkgirl]

Would be grateful if anyone can give advice on the following please.

Donor has registered LPA. Donor in my opinion lacks mental capacity to manage financial affairs and general day to day stuff e.g. cannot total up cash with simple notes + coins, replies with different perception of what year it is and the date generally, doesn't know her own phone number despite having the same for 3 years, often forgets events even 5 minutes later, watches fav tv programme regularly but couldn't tell you any storyline or characters names etc. and when pushed, will decide to say she doesn't watch it that much! has a tv magazine and when asked to look up a particular programme, there's no understanding how to do this etc. when asked to read a simple plain paragraph, she will try and read it but miss out full lines of text and read it in robotic fashion while not really taking in what she's reading........

It is a requirement that the donor is assessed as having capacity to revoke an existing LPA and if so a deed of revocation (dor) is required to be filed at the OPG. Specific details are needed on the dor to revoke LPA (see https://www.gov.uk/power-of-attorney/cancel-or-end-a-lasting-power-of-attorney) such as the date the donor signed the LPA (which was 3 years ago), names of the attorneys (there are two but donor thinks I am a third which I should have been but her abusers had other ideas as they maintain donor has capacity to appear convincing she knows what's going on with her finances, for reasons to benefit them, not the donor), the addresses of the attorneys which the donor wouldn't have a clue of or be able to look up/obtain.

On the above basis would it be considered the donor has capacity to revoke the LPA or even generally has mental capacity?

Would be interested in your opinions, whether you are a qualified medic or not, thanks.

 

[Norfolkgirl]

I'm not quite sure what you are asking, but if you have any doubt as to the 'honesty' of the current attorneys I'd get onto the Office of Public Guardian and raise the issue with them. I believe they have the power to 'discharge' the current attorneys and appoint someone else if they feel the donor's best interests are not being served.

I have already done this but the attorneys stole from the donor before any LPA was established and thus out of the jurisdiction of CoP. When I reported it officially to Social Services and Police they did nothing which ultimately led the abusers to get LPA! Police say they will only intervene if donor does NOT have mental capacity.

What I'm asking is, due to the state of mind of the donor as described, does it in your opinion make you reasonably think that she would have or would not have mental capacity to revoke the LPA as it is a requirement to have mental capacity to "make your own decisions" to be able to do this.

 

[stanleypj]

Unless someone has experience of assessing this particular definition of capacity, I don't think you're going to get an answer on here.

Sorry, I'm not clear - is it you or the attorneys who want it revoked?

 

[nitram]

"...Sorry, I'm not clear - is it you or the attorneys who want it revoked?..."

Background >>>HERE<<< read all thread.

 

[Sue J]

What I'm asking is, due to the state of mind of the donor as described, does it in your opinion make you reasonably think that she would have or would not have mental capacity to revoke the LPA as it is a requirement to have mental capacity to "make your own decisions" to be able to do this.

It reads like she doesn't have the mental capacity and therefore would not understand the implications of an LPA or the revoking of one other than to say that she wanted it revoked in a particular instant because she wanted to 'decide for herself'. My friend is this bad and has no idea about the implications of anything that will have to be considered tomorrow but very much wants to make her own decisions because 'I'm not senile yet' a nightmare, I sympathise

 

[Norfolkgirl]

Unless someone has experience of assessing this particular definition of capacity, I don't think you're going to get an answer on here.

Sorry, I'm not clear - is it you or the attorneys who want it revoked?

Thanks, I'm not asking particularly for anyone having experience of assessing this particular definition of capacity but rather an opinion of a general person in the street, based on the description given of the donor's state of mind, what would you consider i.e. if your loved one was acting as the donor I described in my first post, would you consider them to have mental capacity?

Thanks to those few who have given their opinion and glad to see you would have the same view as me - against the Police and Social Services. This proves my argument they are wrong not to safeguard the donor and probably acting this way as a cover up for their many failures. I am waiting for an appointment for the solicitor to do his own assessment and I am hoping he will come to the same view as me that she doesn't have capacity and therefore he can take measures to report to OPG himself which would hopefully help my case.

Does anyone else have an opinion please, the more the merrier.

 

[Norfolkgirl]

It sounds a bit like my Mum but probably worse, and I would, in my humble opinion say that the donor does not have the mental capacity to revoke the LPA. Has she been diagnosed with dementia, or, if not, is there any medical evidence that you could lay your hands on to prove that she is mentally incapable? I'd still raise your concerns with the Office of Public Guardian in any case - at least then it will be on record. Can't think of anything else to suggest. Hopefully someone with more knowledge and experience will be along soon to advise you further. Good luck.

She has confirmed diagnoses of neurological conditions, patches of brain damage and auto-immune disease affecting her blood coupled with mild cognitive impairment, gliosis of the right frontal lobe, cerebral ischemia and of course this leads to her confabulating (telling inaccurate tales to fill gaps in memory). All the while the Police claim she suffers only "physical" ailments despite being given a list of her confirmed medical diagnoses - sound fishy eh?

 

[pippop1]

It doesn't sound to me as if the donor has capacity either.

 

[Norfolkgirl]

It reads like she doesn't have the mental capacity and therefore would not understand the implications of an LPA or the revoking of one other than to say that she wanted it revoked in a particular instant because she wanted to 'decide for herself'. My friend is this bad and has no idea about the implications of anything that will have to be considered tomorrow but very much wants to make her own decisions because 'I'm not senile yet' a nightmare, I sympathise

But I always argue that usually those with dementia have no idea how ill they are and of course they are in such denial and this then leads to them to be easy targets and a cop out for Social Services/Police to safeguard these vulnerable people!

 

[cragmaid]

OK...if you say to X ( the donor) "do you want Y ( the Attorney) to look after your bills and manage your money"? and X says "yes I do" and you can say to her again " That means that Y will to be able to speak to the bank for you and A & B cannot do anything with your money any more"? and she again says " Yes I do." then you could say she has an understanding or perhaps even capacity. If you can say it to her in front of the witness who is to sign it, and she gives every indication that she understands what she is being asked to do, and the witness believe that she understands there and then and is not being coerced, then she can sign.....even if she forgets everything later on.

This is my understanding of the situation.

 

[Norfolkgirl]

I've read your other post as well and I too think that you are getting a really raw deal from the police and other institutions - it sounds like it's a very complex situation and you do well to get a solicitor involved. Unfortunately all this takes time and allows the fraudsters even more time to help themselves to her money. I wonder whether the solicitor could speak to the bank to freeze her account until it's sorted - might mean you have to cough up in the meantime though.

Yes well I'm hoping there is all that you mention and much more the solicitor should be able to do. I have complained to the IPCC recently and waiting to hear. I absolutely believe there is corruption somewhere along the lines and Police have relied on Social Services that they "believe" my mother has capacity when in fact the opposite is true. My mother is in a care home and they too are complicit with the attorneys and I reckon if ever it comes to light it could make the papers if not on tv news. On top of that, my MP didn't want to help make a complaint against Police and guess what, he has links with the same care home.......you know where I'm coming from with this.

 

[Norfolkgirl]

OK...if you say to X ( the donor) "do you want Y ( the Attorney) to look after your bills and manage your money"? and X says "yes I do" and you can say to her again " That means that Y will to be able to speak to the bank for you and A & B cannot do anything with your money any more"? and she again says " Yes I do." then you could say she has an understanding or perhaps even capacity. If you can say it to her in front of the witness who is to sign it, and she gives every indication that she understands what she is being asked to do, and the witness believe that she understands there and then and is not being coerced, then she can sign.....even if she forgets everything later on.

This is my understanding of the situation.

Who would A & B be?

Yes but there is also the added complication that the witness or certificate provider is close with the fraudulent attorneys (one of attorneys is retired solicitor/cousin of donor whose own daughter was sent to prison for fraud!) would be involved and therefore manipulation/undue influence, being subtly coerced deeming the act as fraud by abuse of position etc. makes the whole thing a sham. In any event, the donor expects me to be one of attorneys and has no idea I am not! There is tons of evidence in this regard.

 

[cragmaid]

You can use a different witness if there is one," a family friend or neighbour or ask her GP or pay a different solicitor to act for her.....this way the villains cannot put pressure on her.

 

[stanleypj]

The more I read about this, the more it seems clear that you need to hand this over to a solicitor.

The Office of the Public Guardian 'works closely with other organisations to ensure that any allegations of abuse are fully investigated and acted on.' http://www.justice.gov.uk/about/opg

So if you have reported the allegations to the OPG and the allegations have not been fully investigated and acted upon the OPG needs to be challenged.

I imagine that the OPG would take more notice of a solicitor than any 'lay' person.

It is vital that the OPG are seen to act, not just in your mum's interest but because anyone who is an attorney needs to know that they will be challenged and dealt with if they have acted fraudulently.

 

[Norfolkgirl]

You can use a different witness if there is one," a family friend or neighbour or ask her GP or pay a different solicitor to act for her.....this way the villains cannot put pressure on her.

Too late, they influenced her who to use, she would have had no idea what's going and it wouldn't have been pressure, just any suggestion so subtle as she doesn't have the necessary capacity to question anything. I didn't know all what was going on until I found out from OPG that there was an LPA already applied for and I wasn't even a person to be told which is suspicious in the first instance, let alone not officially asked to be an attorney.

If anyone else has an opinion as to whether they think the donor has capacity, as described in my first post, please post it thanks. It gives my case more credibility.

 

[Sue J]

But I always argue that usually those with dementia have no idea how ill they are and of course they are in such denial and this then leads to them to be easy targets and a cop out for Social Services/Police to safeguard these vulnerable people!

I totally agree with you, I do have insight into how ill I am and because I do they all use it as an excuse not to give me any help! What's more some Drs think because I have insight I can do something about it! I wish

Would be interested in your opinions, whether you are a qualified medic or not

Why is it the realms of qualified medics to assess capacity, when I am at my worst small children can see I'm not right

 

[Norfolkgirl]

The more I read about this, the more it seems clear that you need to hand this over to a solicitor.

The Office of the Public Guardian 'works closely with other organisations to ensure that any allegations of abuse are fully investigated and acted on.' http://www.justice.gov.uk/about/opg

So if you have reported the allegations to the OPG and the allegations have not been fully investigated and acted upon the OPG needs to be challenged.

I imagine that the OPG would take more notice of a solicitor than any 'lay' person.

It is vital that the OPG are seen to act, not just in your mum's interest but because anyone who is an attorney needs to know that they will be challenged and dealt with if they have acted fraudulently.

The OPG won't intervene until it can be proved the donor lacks mental capacity. When I arranged for a private consultant to assess the donor, he wanted info from donor's GP. When I wrote to GP to arrange this, I found out that the donor had moved GP surgery! (no doubt the fraudulent attorneys did this). The donor still believes she belongs to original GP surgery.

Yes I am a new client with a solicitor who is a member of Solicitors for the Elderly. He already has a brief outline of my concerns but wants to see all the evidence (which was already given to Police), which I handed to him a month ago but have not got any further as yet. He says there are many cases he is dealing with right now similar to mine but when he realises the situation with the Police and their ignorance I'm hoping he'll be able to not only report to OPG but get Police to do something in the meantime which would then give more credibility to my concerns. At the moment, apart from two private investigators who concluded criminality without doubt, I've had no expected support.

 

[Norfolkgirl]

I totally agree with you, I do have insight into how ill I am and because I do they all use it as an excuse not to give me any help! What's more some Drs think because I have insight I can do something about it! I wish



Why is it the realms of qualified medics to assess capacity, when I am at my worst small children can see I'm not right

Hang on, I thought your original post was talking about your friend? I think the issue is that if someone disagrees about mental capacity, in my case the fraudulent attorneys, it then has to be assessed by qualified medics.

 

[Sue J]

Hang on, I thought your original post was talking about your friend? I think the issue is that if someone disagrees about mental capacity, in my case the fraudulent attorneys, it then has to be assessed by qualified medics.

Yes, but my friend is undiagnosed and has been for many years or if she has been diagnosed she has never had any help or assistance in her vulnerability from qualified medics having left her open to abuse.

 

[Norfolkgirl]

Yes, but my friend is undiagnosed and has been for many years or if she has been diagnosed she has never had any help or assistance in her vulnerability from qualified medics having left her open to abuse.

Gosh, has she been abused? if so does she not realise? It's the biggest let down for anyone who has dementia or those suspected of it not being assessed appropriately - it's an open policy for abusers and the longer people live, there is more potential for dementia.