whitehorse

[whitehorse]

Hello. I am new to this forum. For nearly a year now I have been trying to sort out the best solution for my elderly mother. She has been diagnosed with dementia and could not return to her home after a spell in hospital. She is now in a very nice Home and better and happier than she has been for years, though she thinks she will go home soon. She has a property and is therefore self-funding. She has always refused to give Power of Attorney but almost conceded a few months ago but the GP decided that she did not have mental capacity….no great surprise. Next step was to go for Court of Protection and all forms were prepared and ready to present but for some reason the GP decided to go back and see her and suddenly decided that she DID have mental capacity! So, now there is no Power of Attorney and no Court of Protection! What am I to do? There is no money left in the bank and I cannot offer the house on a deferred payment scheme because it is not registered by the Land registry and in trying to resolve that problem it turns out that the house legally belongs to my father who died 20 years ago. Has anyone ever heard of such a situation? the GP refuses to do another assessment and we have been told that to get someone else will cost us £500!! Also, the Court of Protection seem unsure about who exactly CAN do the assessment. I asked for a proper list and was even told that an Accountant would be ok.?? But apparently a Nurse was recently not allowed to do one. Who knows the truth? I have solicitors trying to sort all this out. Can anyone offer advice? I am now going to have to pay a top up out of my own savings just to keep my mother where she is.

 

[stephenjreeve]

Hi there

Suggestions

Social Workers normally carry out Mental Capacity Test - it is a legal obligation before placing someone in a home.

Contact Alzheimer's Society - they are invariably very helpful.

Hope that is a starting point.

Steve R

 

[whitehorse]

Hi there

Suggestions

Social Workers normally carry out Mental Capacity Test - it is a legal obligation before placing someone in a home.

Contact Alzheimer's Society - they are invariably very helpful.

Hope that is a starting point.

Steve R

thanks. I am sure that Social Workers did carry out that test and that is why my mother is in a Home for people with Dementia. I wonder if I can ask for another one? The fact that the GP did a complete u-turn has thrown everyone into turmoil. He basically got scared because my mother was talking about people 'stealing her money'. I did contact Alzheimer's Society and they were really helpful but they were not sure what I should do either! I seem to be blocked from having any medical information about my mother due to confidentiality. does anyone know who can do mental capacity assessments for the Court of Protection? Do I have to find a private person to do it?

 

[2jays]

I think... Not 100% sure, but I think someone who knows your mum well ie neighbour, care home manager can sign to say whether your mum has mental capacity or not, not only a doctor.

If your mum is considered to totally understand "at the time of signing" what a power of attorney (POA) actually is, then even if she has forgotten 5 minutes later that she signed it, that is acceptable.

Have a look at some of the fact sheets on here. A wealth of knowledge.

Will try and give you a link


Here you are

http://www.alzheimers.org.uk/factsheets

 

[sue38]

The Assessment of Capacity form (COP3) gives examples of who can give the certificate

The practitioner may be a registered medical practitioner, psychologist or psychiatrist who has examined and assessed the capacity of the person to whom the application relates. In some circumstances it might be appropriate for a registered therapist, such as a speech therapist or occupational therapist, to complete the form

Does your mum have a consultant?

You can download the forms and guidance here.

 

[starryuk]

2jays is right.

No need for doctors or solicitors.

We used a good friend of mum as a certificate provider. She had to fill in some boxes justifying her suitability, for instance she had known her for 40 years, went out for coffee with her every week, that sort of stuff.

She talked to mum explaining that I would take care of her money for her, keep it safe and use it to pay her bills etc. Mum understood and was happy to agree.

If your mum can understand that at the time and agrees, then it doesn't matter if she forgets later that she signed...as 2jays says.

 

[sue38]

The Assessment of Capacity form (COP3) gives examples of who can give the certificate



Does your mum have a consultant?

You can download the forms and guidance here.

Just to clarify - I'm talking about the person who certifies that someone lacks capacity when you're applying to the Court of Protection for a deputyship order or similar.

 

[whitehorse]

I think... Not 100% sure, but I think someone who knows your mum well ie neighbour, care home manager can sign to say whether your mum has mental capacity or not, not only a doctor.

If your mum is considered to totally understand "at the time of signing" what a power of attorney (POA) actually is, then even if she has forgotten 5 minutes later that she signed it, that is acceptable.

Have a look at some of the fact sheets on here. A wealth of knowledge.

Will try and give you a link


Here you are




I am flabbergasted! Are these solicitors stringing me along? I have struggled to get any help for the last year. Social services are useless and I have never even MET a Social Worker. The county council are equally useless and have bled my mother's bank account dry insisting that they cannot help. I am at the end of my tether and the solicitor is proposing that someone goes to assess Mum at a cost of £500, which I don't have. I am going to have to think very seriously what to do next. thanks!!

 

[whitehorse]

2jays is right.

No need for doctors or solicitors.

We used a good friend of mum as a certificate provider. She had to fill in some boxes justifying her suitability, for instance she had known her for 40 years, went out for coffee with her every week, that sort of stuff.

She talked to mum explaining that I would take care of her money for her, keep it safe and use it to pay her bills etc. Mum understood and was happy to agree.

If your mum can understand that at the time and agrees, then it doesn't matter if she forgets later that she signed...as 2jays says.

I am totally bewildered. You make it sound very simple…!! I have had no help from anyone really. social Services and the county council are dreadful . Are you talking about Power of Attorney? The GP is a nightmare and I am still trying to get answers from him even though I know that it won't get me anywhere. thanks for all these suggestions.

 

[whitehorse]

getting assessments for Court of Protection

Hi everyone. I have had a few interesting replies on this subject, but I am confused. I have read the C O P 3 form and I cannot see how anyone except a qualified medical professional could do this assessment. Someone mentions that a friend did it for her, but this does not seem to fit the approved list on the form? I need to try to find out if Mum has a Social Worker or a consultant, but I don't think she has a consultant and I am not sure if I am allowed to know! I've had my head bitten off by the GP who says that he is not going to discuss Mum's medical details with me! I think I have decided to cancel the 'expert' who was going to see Mum this coming week at a cost of £500 (sorry to keep mentioning this, but it is a bit shocking!) and see what else I can come up with but if anyone has another idea I'd love to know about it. Thanks for the comments so far…..on a previous thread. I wish I had found this website a year ago!

 

[Saffie]

If it is the form that declares that a person does not have mental capacity, I have to say that the Consultan Psychiatrist signed my husband's. My husband was in the hospital where he practised at the time and he made no charge for signing it.

I presume you mean the application form for Deputyship.

 

[starryuk]

I am totally bewildered. You make it sound very simple…!! I have had no help from anyone really. social Services and the county council are dreadful . Are you talking about Power of Attorney? The GP is a nightmare and I am still trying to get answers from him even though I know that it won't get me anywhere. thanks for all these suggestions.

I am so sorry if I have confused you Whitehorse. I assumed that as your GP has decided that your mum has capacity, you were talking about the Lasting Power of Attorney. This is the form to complete if your mum HAS enough capacity and you will be taking over control of your mum's money.

Try to get this if at all possible. Do you think your mum could understand if you asked her?

I agree that the forms looked a bit scary, but we just followed the instructions step by step and the forms were accepted.

 

[sue38]

Hi Whitehorse

Again, apologies if we have confused you.

If your mum is doing an LPA (Lasting Power of Attorney) then she needs someone to certify that she has capacity. That person can be a professional such as a doctor or a solicitor, but can also be a non professional who has known her for at least 2 years such as a friend.

If you are applying to the Court of Protection for Deputyship then you need someone to certify that she lacks capacity. This must be a medical professional as set out in the COP3.

I must say that I think the GP has been less than helpful. I'd be tempted to present the GP with both sets of forms and say "If you think she has capacity sign here, but if you think she hasn't then sign here"

 

[whitehorse]

Hi Whitehorse

Again, apologies if we have confused you.

If your mum is doing an LPA (Lasting Power of Attorney) then she needs someone to certify that she has capacity. That person can be a professional such as a doctor or a solicitor, but can also be a non professional who has known her for at least 2 years such as a friend.

If you are applying to the Court of Protection for Deputyship then you need someone to certify that she lacks capacity. This must be a medical professional as set out in the COP3.




I must say that I think the GP has been less than helpful. I'd be tempted to present the GP with both sets of forms and say "If you think she has capacity sign here, but if you think she hasn't then sign here"

I wish I COULD say that to him!! In the first instance, in October 2013 we were trying for LPA and the GP said that Mum did NOT have capacity to sign. So, I went ahead along the COP path and when it came to the same GP completing the form he suddenly decided that she DID have capacity, so we have no LPA or Court of Protection ! I think he just got scared because Mum got cross and started to accuse him of stealing her money!!!! Now, I don't really know what to do next.

 

[whitehorse]

I am so sorry if I have confused you Whitehorse. I assumed that as your GP has decided that your mum has capacity, you were talking about the Lasting Power of Attorney. This is the form to complete if your mum HAS enough capacity and you will be taking over control of your mum's money.

Try to get this if at all possible. Do you think your mum could understand if you asked her?

I agree that the forms looked a bit scary, but we just followed the instructions step by step and the forms were accepted.

don't be sorry! it is hard to explain it all clearly in a few words, and my situation is VERY complicated! the same GP has said that Mum does NOT have capacity and then a few weeks later said that she DOES. (we all know that she does not) I asked if I could have a second opinion as he had given 2 diametrically opposed verdicts, but I was told that only my Mum could ask for that!!

 

[cragmaid]

OK..let's agree with the GP for a minute....do you have a family friend who has known your Mum for at least two years and who would be willing to sign the application form, if....and its a big if I know, you can get Mum to understand that you need her to sign the form so that she can pay her fees to keep her in the nice home, bearing in mind that she only has to understand at the time of signing and does not have to retain the memory ?

If the answer is yes to this convoluted question, then you can go down the LPA route....

If the answer is no to the friend, but she can still answer the question, then you can ask your solicitor or similar to sign the form.

If the answer is no and she cannot or will not answer, then you will need to seek a second opinion. Perhaps there is another GP in the practice othewise you must contact the Social Services and tell them that she needs another capacity assessment, also a financial assessment, and you need to look into any benefits Mum is receiving....she most certainly ought to be getting Attendance Allowance. Tell the SS that if there is no assistance from them, THEY will have to sort out a Deputy, and manage her funds and fees as you will not be able to sort out paying top ups and Mum, is, after all, Self Funding and as such will not be needing Top ups since she can afford the placement out of her own money.
Good Luck.

 

[whitehorse]

OK..let's agree with the GP for a minute....do you have a family friend who has known your Mum for at least two years and who would be willing to sign the application form, if....and its a big if I know, you can get Mum to understand that you need her to sign the form so that she can pay her fees to keep her in the nice home, bearing in mind that she only has to understand at the time of signing and does not have to retain the memory ?

If the answer is yes to this convoluted question, then you can go down the LPA route....

If the answer is no to the friend, but she can still answer the question, then you can ask your solicitor or similar to sign the form.



If the answer is no and she cannot or will not answer, then you will need to seek a second opinion. Perhaps there is another GP in the practice othewise you must contact the Social Services and tell them that she needs another capacity assessment, also a financial assessment, and you need to look into any benefits Mum is receiving....she most certainly ought to be getting Attendance Allowance. Tell the SS that if there is no assistance from them, THEY will have to sort out a Deputy, and manage her funds and fees as you will not be able to sort out paying top ups and Mum, is, after all, Self Funding and as such will not be needing Top ups since she can afford the placement out of her own money.
Good Luck.

well thanks for that very clear answer! I think that LPA is out because by now Mum is apt to fly into a strop if money/house/etc is mentioned. She has thought for ages that my sister and myself are just going to steal her money. we just cannot bring up that subject, and I think that when the GP did his last visit this is what happened. She accused him also of trying to steal her money! The fact that this is obviously part of her illness counts for nothing! The GP refuses to have anything to do with this now and is being incredibly stubborn as he is obviously protecting his own back. He already said that Mum did not have capacity for LPA and now he is saying that she DOES, so we cannot apply for COP. I am trying to find out who her Social worker is or if she saw a consultant, because she HAS been diagnosed with Dementia! so far no luck. we cannot offer the house for a Deferred payment because of complicated legal problems which we are trying to resolve. It is a nightmare. thanks for the reply!

 

[cragmaid]

Just a quick thought...since the house was not transferred into Mum's name on the death of your father...try telling the LA that she has no assets in her name. That should get things moving!!!:

 

[whitehorse]

Just a quick thought...since the house was not transferred into Mum's name on the death of your father...try telling the LA that she has no assets in her name. That should get things moving!!!:

yes, this had occurred to me too, but the solicitor does not seem to bite on that one!!! still working on it……….thanks.

 

[Noorza]

don't be sorry! it is hard to explain it all clearly in a few words, and my situation is VERY complicated! the same GP has said that Mum does NOT have capacity and then a few weeks later said that she DOES. (we all know that she does not) I asked if I could have a second opinion as he had given 2 diametrically opposed verdicts, but I was told that only my Mum could ask for that!!

If he has said she has capacity, could your mum sign a letter of permission to the doctor, that you would write, giving them permission to give you access to her medical records and to act on her behalf and get the nursing home manager to witness it?

I know it's not a health and welfare PoA but establishing capacity with the least further cost, this may or may not work.

I can only tell you that my mum's doctors are wonderful, I didn't realise how much, mum gave them permission only verbally years ago to discuss everything with me. The recorded it on her notes, they are open about everything, I even had an appointment on Monday for a medication check, she'd forgotten what she should be taking, and new prescriptions were printed without mum even being there.

The GP is grateful that I can remember what was changed and why, who did what, how her health is deteriorating but she did give permission when well. They just tell me the lot no Health and Welfare PoA needed.

It depends on the GP and I've been taking mum there for 20 years so they know I've always known about her conditions. Maybe just lucky they are so kind.