Self funding - Should I have to sell the house abroad?
- Thread starter Dayperson
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Not quite sure who the owners of the house are, their relationship to the person needing care and whether they need it for a residence?
Yes a Home is counted as an asset even if it is co-owned.
My understanding is that if you are self-funding, how you raise the funding is up to you; whether through rental of a property, selling asset, buying an annuity or even taking out a loan. Wouldn't recommend all those methods but they are possible.
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Hello, if you can give us a bit more information, regarding the ownership of the property and is it in the UK, and and the link to the person needing residential care, we will try to give you some more help.
Hello, if you can give us a bit more information, regarding the ownership of the property and is it in the UK, and and the link to the person needing residential care, we will try to give you some more help.
The house is in France, if we sell it now, it will be at a massive loss and not enough to buy something in the UK and it is co-owned by mum (who has dementia) and dad
We are all currently renting in the UK, the French house is empty and not lived in, I think this why the council says we have to sell it?
If it is not your father's main home then I'm afraid the answer will be yes, it is an asset. Had your father been living in it then it would have been disregarded whilst he was living there.
However, is there any reason why your father cannot buy a small home in the UK?
If the house in France was your parents' main residence then that might make a difference but I think perhaps it would have to be in both names to prove need for a home rather than a means of avoiding fees.
LAs have discretion to allow more than half the proceeds of the sale of a home to be used by one of the owners if the purchase of another home is not possible for half the amount made from the sale. However, I'm not sure they would go as far as allowing it all to be used.
Others will probably be able to explain more concisely!
However, is there any reason why your father cannot buy a small home in the UK?
If the house in France was your parents' main residence then that might make a difference but I think perhaps it would have to be in both names to prove need for a home rather than a means of avoiding fees.
LAs have discretion to allow more than half the proceeds of the sale of a home to be used by one of the owners if the purchase of another home is not possible for half the amount made from the sale. However, I'm not sure they would go as far as allowing it all to be used.
Others will probably be able to explain more concisely!
You said the house in France was co-owned by your Mum and Dad.
The most common type of co-ownership in France is En Indivision which broadly equate to the UK tenants in common which means the your Mum and Dad each own a share (usually 50%) rather than have a share of the jointly owned total.
If this is the case only the share owned by your Mum is available to the LA.
If you don't know the ownership details you should try and obtain them a soon as possible.
The most common type of co-ownership in France is En Indivision which broadly equate to the UK tenants in common which means the your Mum and Dad each own a share (usually 50%) rather than have a share of the jointly owned total.
If this is the case only the share owned by your Mum is available to the LA.
If you don't know the ownership details you should try and obtain them a soon as possible.
If you have plenty of funds to cover care costs for the foreseeable future, then it's up to you whether you sell the house or not.
If funds will only cover a limited time, and the council will be paying afterwards, then presumably that would be why they are asking you to sell a house that nobody's living in. Or is it the case that you intend to return to it some time in the not too distant future?
I don't suppose they take into account whether it would sell at a loss or not. From all I read and hear, the property market in many parts of France is very flat, and there's really no telling when it might pick up again.
Would letting the house be a possibility?
If funds will only cover a limited time, and the council will be paying afterwards, then presumably that would be why they are asking you to sell a house that nobody's living in. Or is it the case that you intend to return to it some time in the not too distant future?
I don't suppose they take into account whether it would sell at a loss or not. From all I read and hear, the property market in many parts of France is very flat, and there's really no telling when it might pick up again.
Would letting the house be a possibility?
The council can't force a house sale until after death of person with dementia but they can take out a deferred payment agreement so mum can continue to live there.. Not sure if this ends on death of PWD or Death of second person (applies even with no 2nd person in resident). Basically a charge on the house but they can't force sale- that is my understanding- Recent care act.
NOt sure if Dad living with family (you?) or care home but house not taken as asset if paying domicilary care- only taken into account for residential care.
NOt sure if Dad living with family (you?) or care home but house not taken as asset if paying domicilary care- only taken into account for residential care.
Tough as it seems, most LAs are so strapped for cash to fund care that they simply don't care how much 'loss' you have to suffer in order to pay for care.
I presume you have already tried to sell the house in France? If you have and it is taking a while it may be enough to persuade the LA to offer you a 'deferred payment scheme', which legally they are required to offer you.
Hopefully your LA will be more generous but my LA wants a £1000 'set-up' fee and also the top rate of interest allowed, which I'm told is under 2% (though not what is currently on their website).
I agree you as a family are in a truly difficult circumstances and I know house prices in France are not good. The 'plus' side of that, though scarcely a plus I appreciate, is that with a poor return on the house your mother's 'share' will not last long paying for her care. At which point SS will have to start contributing and eventually taking over so ensure you choose somewhere SS people are accepted to avoid a future move.
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Dayperson said it's her mother who has dementia and we don't know that she is not still living with her father. I confess my comment was addressing the position assuming mother was already in a care home but of course things are different if still living at home and costs are different too. However, can a house be considered a home if no one is living there but are living elsewhere? Not sure.
Wouldn't they have a legal duty to do so under the care act? I'm not sure.
Not sure if any of this would be any help but will post it anyway- maybe helpful for someone
https://www.moneyadviceservice.org.uk/en/articles/deferred-payment-agreements-for-long-term-care
Take a look at next link and click to open up the download document as PDF in Adobe
http://www.poole.gov.uk/your-counci...-plans-and-policies/deferred-payments-policy/
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Just checking but are you aware the house is in France and the family have moved back to the UK and are currently renting?
Yes I knew house was in France but an asset is an asset either here or abroad. Like I said- I really don't know- just throwing my twopenneth into the ring in case it may help. I don't know if renting here would make much difference? - other than running down financial savings. IMHO, if you own a property, that is your home even if you choose to rent and live temporarily elsewhere. The authorities of course may take a different view.
The principle behind the Care Act is that the family home does not have to be sold to pay for residential care of somebody who lived in the property before they went into care.
The LA lend money secured against the property, the debt plus interest has to be repaid after the death of the care home resident, at this stage it may or may not be necessary to sell the property.
In the OP's case it is hard to see how the French property can be classed as the family home as the family appear to have voluntarily chosen to move out and live elsewhere.
if a property is in the UK the LA put a charge on the property registered at the Land Registry, this is the amount they are prepared to lend and can be considerably less than the current market value of the house.
With the complexity of French ownership,the Euro/GBP variations, and the uncertainty of the market at death of the resident, I doubt if the LA would agree to much of a deferred payment.
Unless the family intend to return to the property in the future it's probably best to just bite the bullet and sell.
The alternative is to find the cash for funding elsewhere as, given some form of joint ownership, and unless the property is a complete wreck, Mum has over the lower limit of assets.
The LA lend money secured against the property, the debt plus interest has to be repaid after the death of the care home resident, at this stage it may or may not be necessary to sell the property.
In the OP's case it is hard to see how the French property can be classed as the family home as the family appear to have voluntarily chosen to move out and live elsewhere.
if a property is in the UK the LA put a charge on the property registered at the Land Registry, this is the amount they are prepared to lend and can be considerably less than the current market value of the house.
With the complexity of French ownership,the Euro/GBP variations, and the uncertainty of the market at death of the resident, I doubt if the LA would agree to much of a deferred payment.
Unless the family intend to return to the property in the future it's probably best to just bite the bullet and sell.
The alternative is to find the cash for funding elsewhere as, given some form of joint ownership, and unless the property is a complete wreck, Mum has over the lower limit of assets.
I agree with Nitram. The LA has to organise 3 valuations to start then keep the valuations updated, They have to get a charge on the property or whatever the French equivalent is (if indeed one exists) and all the administration charges and legal costs for doing this would be down to you along with the LA's costs. Setting all this up could run into serious money.
The guidelines say that:
"8.3 Tenants in Common
8.3.1 This situation can arise where a property falls under tenants in common -
an increasingly frequent situation where each party owns a defined share,
this can be two or more persons, but the total shares will add up to 100%.
Each person can dispose of their share however they choose.
8.3.2 To access the Deferred Payment Scheme this will require the original
charge (tenants in common) to be deferred and all parties having to agree
to your authority having a charge on the property."
I've never understood the bit I've underlined, I don't understand what deferring the common tenancy means and again what the French equivalent is as I don't understand what it means in English.
K
https://www.local.gov.uk/sites/default/files/documents/dpa-implementation-toolki-cc8.pdf
The guidelines say that:
"8.3 Tenants in Common
8.3.1 This situation can arise where a property falls under tenants in common -
an increasingly frequent situation where each party owns a defined share,
this can be two or more persons, but the total shares will add up to 100%.
Each person can dispose of their share however they choose.
8.3.2 To access the Deferred Payment Scheme this will require the original
charge (tenants in common) to be deferred and all parties having to agree
to your authority having a charge on the property."
I've never understood the bit I've underlined, I don't understand what deferring the common tenancy means and again what the French equivalent is as I don't understand what it means in English.
K
https://www.local.gov.uk/sites/default/files/documents/dpa-implementation-toolki-cc8.pdf
"To access the Deferred Payment Scheme this will require the original
charge (tenants in common) to be deferred and all parties having to agree
to your authority having a charge on the property."
I understand this to mean that as each tenant in common owns a share they have a charge on that share and that they have to agree to this charge being overridden by the LA charge.
I may of course be wrong, that's my layman's view.
charge (tenants in common) to be deferred and all parties having to agree
to your authority having a charge on the property."
I understand this to mean that as each tenant in common owns a share they have a charge on that share and that they have to agree to this charge being overridden by the LA charge.
I may of course be wrong, that's my layman's view.
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