Self funder - what happens when the money runs out?

[Slava]

Hi all,

Dad is in a residential care home due to having no mobility, being incontinent and depressed.
Mum is in a different care home, as due to her Alzheimer's and challenging behaviour, she needs a different type of care (EMI care).

Mums care costs are approx £1700/week, dad's are £1000/week. Both are self-funding.

We would like to move dad to mums care home, so that they can be together. The care home has 2 sections, one dementia unit and a separate residential care unit. If we moved dad, his fees in mums place would also be £1700/week (so +£700/week).

When the money runs out, and assuming they both pass the care needs assessment, is it likely that they will be able to stay where they are - funded by the council? I've spoken to several care homes in different areas that have said (paraphrasing) "we've never lost residents due to there not being enough council funding" and "we don't kick people out". What are others experiences?

The problem seems to be that nobody will guarantee anything, and you only find out when you run out of money.

I expect it varies by council(?).

Carehome.co.uk has some information, but I'm interested in other people's experiences and thoughts.

Thanks in advance.

 

[try again]

Can't answer this myself. Heard the same from ch mum is in.
Interested in following though. Mum has about 4 years of funding and I have a pot as well ( and one for my cats, none for me 😁)

 

[canary]

Hello @Slava and welcome to Talking Point.

The time to contact Social Services is when either your mum, or your dads funding (not joint) drops to £25,000. The upper threshold is £23,500, so that gives a bit of leeway.

Each council has an upper limit that they will pay the care home and the problem will be whether the care home will accept this upper limit. Some of the less expensive homes will indeed accept this limit and there will be no problems. Some will accept this limit if the resident had been previously self-funded. My mums care home would accept the LA rate if mum had been self-funded for 2 years or more. In mums case she passed away before her money ran out, so it was never actually put to the test, but this is what the care home had told me.

The problem will be if the care home will not accept the LA funding. Some care homes will ask the family for a "top-up" fee and a few of the expensive homes will not accept any payment from the LA at all. I would not recommend you agree to pay top-up fees - it can work out eye-wateringly expensive, the resident is not allowed to pay them (it has to come from a third party, usually family) and you will have fees to pay for two people.

I would suggest that you talk to the manager of the care home and ask them whether they accept LA funding or not and, if they do, would you be expected to pay top-up fees? If they want top-up fees ask them if they would waive them if your parents have been self-funding for a certain length of time.

The answers that you get will tell you whether they would have to move when the money runs out
x

 

[Slava]

Thanks for the replies, especially @canary - very interesting and some good suggestions. Sorry your mum passed away.

The whole situation is so disheartening. We start thinking about longevity, and what will happen when all their money has gone.

Does anybody know what happens if the care home won't accept the level of funding offered by the LA and we can't supplement? Does this then become a LA problem, or is it still down to us?

 

[Indy321]

I wonder why the NHS are not paying for your father’s care? If he has a debilitating illness (no mobility) then this is a health issue that they cover.

Regarding the council payments for dementia care, they do have a limit close to 800 week (per person) that they will agree to pay. As your bills would be so much higher the care homes may be less inclined to work without a top-up - definitely get in touch with the council for the assessments sooner rather thanlater

 

[nitram]

Does anybody know what happens if the care home won't accept the level of funding offered by the LA and we can't supplement? Does this then become a LA problem, or is it still down to us?

It becomes an LA problem and it will decide on the care home, it will try to get you to pay a third party top up.

 

[nitram]

I wonder why the NHS are not paying for your father’s care? If he has a debilitating illness (no mobility) then this is a health issue that they cover.

Lack of mobility does not create a primary health need on the CHC DST.

 

[canary]

I wonder why the NHS are not paying for your father’s care? If he has a debilitating illness (no mobility) then this is a health issue that they cover.

Loss of mobility is considered to be a "social need" rather than a "health need", so the NHS wont cover care costs.

The bar is set incredibly high for obtaining CHC

 

[Slava]

It becomes an LA problem and it will decide on the care home, it will try to get you to pay a third party top up.

Thanks @nitram that's reassuring.

What happens if a third party top-up isn't possible? If residents become the LA's responsibility, presumably it's fete accompli. I'm sure they'll put us under some pressure though.

 

[nitram]

Thanks @nitram that's reassuring.

What happens if a third party top-up isn't possible? If residents become the LA's responsibility, presumably it's fete accompli. I'm sure they'll put us under some pressure though.

The LA will try to move the resident to a different home that accepts what it is prepared to pay.
A defence against this move is that the resident is settled and near people who regularly visit and moving would not be in their best interests,

 

[Kapow]

The LA will try to move the resident to a different home that accepts what it is prepared to pay.
A defence against this move is that the resident is settled and near people who regularly visit and moving would not be in their best interests,

You are under no obligation to pay the top up fee.None.If you stick to your guns the local council will have to pay it.I paid top up fees for my husband until the care home raised it to £120 a month.I contacted the council and flatly refused to pay and stated that if the council said he therefore has to be moved to a home with cheaper fees then that would be detrimental to his health as he is settled there,having been there three years.Now the council pay the whole top up fee amount.Stick to your guns,say no,no,no.

 

[canary]

You are under no obligation to pay the top up fee.None.If you stick to your guns the local council will have to pay it.I paid top up fees for my husband until the care home raised it to £120 a month.I contacted the council and flatly refused to pay and stated that if the council said he therefore has to be moved to a home with cheaper fees then that would be detrimental to his health as he is settled there,having been there three years.Now the council pay the whole top up fee amount.Stick to your guns,say no,no,no.

Saying that moving him would be detrimental to his health is a reasonable argument for getting the LA to pay the top-up and one that @nitram mentioned. In your case this was successful, but it may not always be, especially as LAs are now so strapped for cash. LAs are not obliged to do it.

 

[Kapow]

Saying that moving him would be detrimental to his health is a reasonable argument for getting the LA to pay the top-up and one that @nitram mentioned. In your case this was successful, but it may not always be, especially as LAs are now so strapped for cash. LAs are not obliged to do it.

I see your point...however,often it's a case of who blinks first...you have to fight for every little bit of help I have found,in my case almost three years! I couldn't give up because I couldn't afford it.