Will SS be on our side?

[lori107]

I am still struggling with my fil who broke his hip in October and went into a care home. We thought to begin with he was settling, he likes the entertainment they have once or twice a week and enjoys pottering in the garden with the carers. He is registered blind and the alzheimers has got much worse than before he had the accident. He has started to keep going on about going back to his flat where he says he can manage perfectly fine with a bit of help. There was an argument over his keys, he wanted them back and was talking about popping home to have a shower! ! Hubby refused to let him have them as he has been asking anybody to take him back. He is being assessed by SS on 5th January and we are hoping that they will say he cannot return home for his own . He is so unsteady on his feet, he wobbles on two sticks ,he can't work out how to do go to the toilet on his own, we were horrified on xmas day when he didn't know what to do to go to the loo, and has been using a commode in his room. He remembers nothing in the present and on xmas day when he was with us he couldn't even feed himself without it being cut up and the food then put on his fork for him. Surely SS will say he can't manage in the flat, even if he does have capacity to make some decisions, he doesn't have capacity to understand his safety as he thinks there is nothing wrong with him. Will SS ask the home what he can and can't do, as he will tell them he can do all of it himself, who will they believe.? I wrote to SS telling them all the things he will probably tell them he can manage but in reality has no idea. We are terrified they will give him permission to return home and we can't stop him. Hubby took him to visit the flat today and he could barely manage the steps to the front door even with help and almost fell over twice. Will is SS be on our side? Fil says if we don't let him go backto the flat he will get a solicitor on to us. He doesn't remember to eat and drink unless it is put in front of him either.
Where do we stand regarding the poa for health in this instance that we have

 

[betsie]

Hi
Sorry I can't offer any personal experience as my dad was self funded but surely the home will support you.
Have you spoken to the manager about your concern? As he is in a carehome I assume SS will speak to them as well.

I hope the carehome can ease your concerns and all goes well with the meeting.

 

[Quilty]

Agree with betsie. Find out what the carechome thinks and take it from there. I would say his keys are lost to stop talk from him of going home. Dont argue, just stall him. Very hard but needs must. Stay strong.

 

[lori107]

Hi
Sorry I can't offer any personal experience as my dad was self funded but surely the home will support you.
Have you spoken to the manager about your concern? As he is in a carehome I assume SS will speak to them as well.

I hope the carehome can ease your concerns and all goes well with the meeting.

Hi betaine,

He is self funded so we are paying for everything. The care home manager thinkshe may still have some capacity to make some decisions but they don't think he could manage without 24/7 help. I just want to know if ss will take their opinions into account, how much will fil be able to sway them with his devious answers I have no idea.

 

[betsie]

If SS think about sending him home make sure you say you can not help at all. If they think you will go back to going in every day etc to help look after him they will be more inclined to let him go home.

Write a list of all the things he can no longer do for himself ( to manage at home) and any incidents that put him at risk ( wandering, leaving the oven on etc). If you have it all written down you won't forget anything.

 

[betsie]

Sorry, forgot to say, from my conversations about my dad with his carehome manager, she always gave me the impression that SS would listen to her opinion as to dads capacity.

Also the fact you are self funded helps in my opinion, as it isn't costing SS anything for him to stay in the carehome.

 

[curtainsgalore]

If SS think about sending him home make sure you say you can not help at all. If they think you will go back to going in every day etc to help look after him they will be more inclined to let him go home.

Write a list of all the things he can no longer do for himself ( to manage at home) and any incidents that put him at risk ( wandering, leaving the oven on etc). If you have it all written down you won't forget anything.

Yes defiantly lay it on the line that you take no responsibility if he is sent home. SS will sit back and leave you to it, until another crisis when he WILL be sent back to the care home because he can't cope living alone. And you're back to square one.
Good luck and stay firm



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[lori107]

Yes defiantly lay it on the line that you take no responsibility if he is sent home. SS will sit back and leave you to it, until another crisis when he WILL be sent back to the care home because he can't cope living alone. And you're back to square one.
Good luck and stay firm



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Thanks for your input. I really appreciate any advice. I am not in good health myself as I suffer from chronic back pain so I really struggle to even visit him, but I do weekly. Everyone else in the family works f/t long hours so it is just me available. The care home manager has told me he needs help going to the toilet with managing clothing and hygiene so surely that says it all! I have written down everything he cannot do , even though he will probably tell SS that he can. So I'm hoping this helps. If they say he can't go back is that it, do we not have to get him assessed any more. He will have to remain in the care home even if he doesn't want to be there?

 

[betsie]

I would think that would be it as sadly he isn't going to improve. I think the carehome apply for a DOLs which is deprivation of liberty, not sure exactly what it is but I was told they get one for all residents as they can no longer go out as they please.

I am sure someone else will have more info on that.

 

[fizzie]

To keep him there against his will they will have to assess him as not having capacity - a psychiatrist will do that - otherwise he has the right to decide where he lives. No-one can be forced to do something that they don't want to do unless they are deemed to be unable to make decisions - I know a number of people who choose to live in conditions that are not good but they have capacity.

 

[lori107]

To keep him there against his will they will have to assess him as not having capacity - a psychiatrist will do that - otherwise he has the right to decide where he lives. No-one can be forced to do something that they don't want to do unless they are deemed to be unable to make decisions - I know a number of people who choose to live in conditions that are not good but they have capacity.

So even if he can't walk, can't go to the toilet on his own ,doesn't know how to cut up food and eat with a knife and fork and is blind, if he doesn't want to stay in the care home we can do nothing, even if his safety is the only concern and the fact he has no understanding on how to be safe? Really, even with all those issues he can still be allowed to go home to a flat on his own, during the day and night and we just wait for the next phone call to say he has had another fall and is being taken to hospital with this or that or he is dead!! That is ridiculous.

 

[fizzie]

If he has capacity he has choice If he can't do those things then the assessor will see all of that and presumably will make the right decision because it means that he couldn't cope on his own. I'm sorry I didn't see that you had said he was registered blind - I must have missed it and I thought you had said he needed help to manage the toilet not that he didn't know how to use the toilet! You also said he was wobbly - that might be expected after a fall (loss of confidence) and a broken hip - it takes time and a lot of help to get people mobile again My mum was a dancer and so very agile and she was back and walking unaided within 2 months at nearly 90 but I walked with her every single day right from the beginning even in the hospital and then insisted on physio etc etc - takes a lot of work to get someone older mobile again after a break so I just thought that was 'normal'. They will look at it in the round and speak to you and to the care home and to your FiL and assess him My understanding is that you can only use the PoA if he has no capacity, you can't just use it to force people to do things!

It is difficult to answer your question really without the full picture - you don't say whether or not he has capacity! They won't put him into an unsafe environment with no care - he is a vulnerable older person and if you say you won't give him any help if he returns home then obviously they will take that into account - can't help because I've never done that.
Sorry if I offended you I was just working on the info you gave.

 

[lori107]

If he has capacity he has choice If he can't do those things then the assessor will see all of that and presumably will make the right decision because it means that he couldn't cope on his own. I'm sorry I didn't see that you had said he was registered blind - I must have missed it and I thought you had said he needed help to manage the toilet not that he didn't know how to use the toilet! You also said he was wobbly - that might be expected after a fall (loss of confidence) and a broken hip - it takes time and a lot of help to get people mobile again My mum was a dancer and so very agile and she was back and walking unaided within 2 months at nearly 90 but I walked with her every single day right from the beginning even in the hospital and then insisted on physio etc etc - takes a lot of work to get someone older mobile again after a break so I just thought that was 'normal'. They will look at it in the round and speak to you and to the care home and to your FiL and assess him My understanding is that you can only use the PoA if he has no capacity, you can't just use it to force people to do things!

It is difficult to answer your question really without the full picture - you don't say whether or not he has capacity! They won't put him into an unsafe environment with no care - he is a vulnerable older person and if you say you won't give him any help if he returns home then obviously they will take that into account - can't help because I've never done that.
Sorry if I offended you I was just working on the info you gave.

No fizzie,

You didn't offend me, it's fine, please don't think that. I just want some idea where we stand. He broke his hip in October but because of the advancing AD he is really struggling with the exercises the home give him and will not or cannot follow instructions. We don't believe he has capacity. He seems to hanker to go back to how things were 10 or so years ago, that is the life he wants but he doesn't understand that he isn't that person any more and can't do the things he thinks he can. We overheard him talking to someone a few days ago and he was saying he could jump in a taxi and pop round to see them. He wouldn't even be able to get in the taxi let alone go out. He does not know how to use the loo anymore and asked hubby what he needed to do to be able to go. And it's not that, he has to be reminded to eat and drink or he won't. The whole thing is so sad but my children lost their grandma (his wife) when they were just 10 and 12 and I don't want them to lose him because he has no concept of how he would cope once he is back in the flat. At least he is safe at the moment. Many thanks for your help.

 

[curtainsgalore]

I know it's easy to say (I am a huge worrier!) but try to hang on until the assessment on the 5th of Jan. I know we all run SS down but they are used to seeing through the strange answers that people with dementia give and don't just believe that they can live alone. As your Fil is already in the care home I'm pretty sure they'll not want to move him home again and then move him back as his AD progresses. Try not to worry and stand fast using love lies to just keep him where he is. SS will do capacity assessments and best interest meetings etc. With my Mum I just let them get on with it without me around as she always expected me to answer for her and couldn't understand that I wasn't allowed to.
One thing though, with the DOLs, Mum's care home had them because it is locked and she can't leave. Not all care homes are secure and people come and go freely. I'm not sure how DOL work if people aren't locked in.
Good luck



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[lori107]

I know it's easy to say (I am a huge worrier!) but try to hang on until the assessment on the 5th of Jan. I know we all run SS down but they are used to seeing through the strange answers that people with dementia give and don't just believe that they can live alone. As your Fil is already in the care home I'm pretty sure they'll not want to move him home again and then move him back as his AD progresses. Try not to worry and stand fast using love lies to just keep him where he is. SS will do capacity assessments and best interest meetings etc. With my Mum I just let them get on with it without me around as she always expected me to answer for her and couldn't understand that I wasn't allowed to.
One thing though, with the DOLs, Mum's care home had them because it is locked and she can't leave. Not all care homes are secure and people come and go freely. I'm not sure how DOL work if people aren't locked in.
Good luck



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Hi curtainsgalore,

We have been to see him today and again he asked if he could have his keys but again we said no. He knows ss are coming in on Tuesday but seems to think that they will say he is perfectly fit, he had another fall yesterday and either he doesn't want to press the call button or doesn't think to, luckily they have put a pressure mat down by his bed which alerted them he had got out of bed but again if he had been in the flat alone! Hopefully things will go smoothly for us, we just need confirmation that he cannot live alone safely and then maybe he will settle. The home is secure, you can't just walk in or out, out, there is a coded door so at least we know he couldn't go wandering.

 

[copsham]

I presume the meeting will be an assessment for a "Deprivation of Liberty". When my mother had this assessment the local authority consulted with a psychiatrist, her GP, the nursing home, my mother and myself before coming to a conclusion. It was not a once off visit in isolation. If you do a search on this site you will find a lot of information about Deprivation of Liberty.

It is a big thing to take away someones liberty. I visit a 99 yrs old woman who does not have dementia who is choosing to "die at home". She is making an informed decision, despite being unable to do most things for herself. This is respected by the system.

Obviously with dementia it is totally different. Good luck with Tuesday.

 

[lori107]

Assessment ongoing

SW came out today to assess fil in the care home. She said he was trying to tell her lots of things but kept getting very confused during the conversation. Says it all really. I would have thought!
She's coming back in two weeks time and I think she is bringing the dementia nurse with her.
He now has been found to be anaemic and has a fungal infection in his groin.
At least he's not going anywhere at the moment. Had another fall yesterday as he doesn't remember to press the call button when he stands up. Luckily he fell on the pressure mat again.
I have told SW he is self funded and that OH has poa for health and welfare and that he is very vulnerable on his own. I have also said there is no one in the flats to keep an eye on him, they are all elderly and that due to work commitments and my Ill health there is no one to see him every day. I hope they understand it is not just mental capacity, he is also virtually blind and ery unsteady on his feet.