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Will Legacy

Nero1234

Registered User
Nov 3, 2015
28
Update

Have just re read this. The earlier will is still valid. The later will includes charities. As Sue said, they are very much a business these days and are notorious about getting their money and they don't care who they upset to do it.
I would like to know who instigated the deed of variation and why were the intended beneficiaries even told about a will that isn't valid?
To me, it stinks.
The earlier will is still valid and should be used.
Let alone what the LA will say about deprivation of assets!
The solicitors have instigated the deeds of variation to ask the beneficeries from the 2003 will to comply with her last wishes and insstructions would a judge be able to do this as 6 out of 7 have already agreed verbaly to sign the deed only my relative has to make her decision
 

Nero1234

Registered User
Nov 3, 2015
28
Updatep

Of course the beneficiaries of the 2015 will want the deed of variation as they will benefit. But if the 2015 will isn't valid, their opinion is irrelevant. Only the beneficiaries of the 2003 will need to agree. If the lady does not have capacity, even if you think she would have agreed, the only decision that can be made is one which best protects her financial interests ie does not result in her receiving a lower amount. An attorney would not be complying with their duties to agree to a deed of variation and in the absence of an attorney the CoP will decide.

I don't know how much pressure is being put on your relative, but you must resist any emotional blackmail. If the solicitors have messed up, that's their problem to sort out not yours or your relatives' concern.
Just to clarify it is only the benefieries who are included in both the wills that are being asked to sign the deed several of the people from the 2003 will have sadly passed away
 

LadyA

Registered User
Oct 19, 2009
13,631
Ireland
But your relative cannot make the decision. Effectively, she needs protection in this. Besides, even if she did agree to sign the Deed of Variation, I doubt it would be valid, if she doesn't have capacity.
 

2jays

Registered User
Jun 4, 2010
11,598
West Midlands
The 2015 will is not valid. It doesn't matter what the other beneficiaries do, sign or say, and no amount of pressure to deed vary or any other kind, should be followed its is unethical if not illegal, especially in these circumstances. The person who has no capacity, must be financially protected.

The only valid will is the earlier one.

In my opinion......


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Saffie

Registered User
Mar 26, 2011
22,514
Near Southampton
The solicitors have instigated the deeds of variation to ask the beneficeries from the 2003 will to comply with her last wishes and insstructions would a judge be able to do this as 6 out of 7 have already agreed verbaly to sign the deed only my relative has to make her decision
The doubt has to remain about the the lady's last wishes if she didn't sign the will.
If it was valid then it would have revoked the earlier will.
I'm wondering just who is to benefit from this new will that didn't from the authorised will to make it so important.
 

Beate

Registered User
May 21, 2014
12,031
London
Solicitors shouldn't put pressure on people to sign something away by saying it was the deceased's wish and everyone else has agreed. If the deceased wanted it so badly, they should have signed the will. If they didn't get a chance before they died, that's sad but doesn't change the fact that the only legal will is the old one. Something smells fishy here, but the fact remains that someone without mental capacity cannot sign something they do not understand, and they need protecting from being coerced into doing so.
 

cragmaid

Registered User
Oct 18, 2010
7,941
North East England
The solicitors have instigated the deeds of variation to ask the beneficeries from the 2003 will to comply with her last wishes and instructions
I am not legally trained. I have done some research but the following is purely my opinion. I found this website with very little searching: http://anthonygold.co.uk/latest/legal-insight/what-can-you-do-with-an-unsigned-will



Whoever is responsible for the Legal and Financial Welfare of your relative, must take independant legal advice from a suitable solicitor. The keyword here being independant.
If your relative is considered to have capacity to make her own decisions, then she needs to seek legal advice, and not make any decisions which may compromise her own financial stability.

Any attempt to subvert the course of law, could be seen as a criminal act, and if undue pressure is put on a vulnerable person, there may be investigations made.
If I was in your position, Nero, I'd put it into the hands of a reliable legal firm and carry on being a good friend to your relative.
 

jenniferpa

Registered User
Jun 27, 2006
39,448
I don't think any of us could say what a judge (presumably from the COP) would do in this situation, but that's the only option. I would hazard a guess that in fact the petitioner (in this case the solicitor attempting to get the deed of variation) would need permission from the court even to apply, which may well not be granted, and even if it was if the variation left your relative in a financially worse off position then they wouldn't be successful anyway. It's not the remit of the court to worsen the financial position of those it has to protect.

Are they putting pressure on you (or your relative)? Because if so, tell them to take a hike (to the court if they are so inclined). If they are just asking, tell them politely that they will have to take whatever legal steps they feel they need to take but your relative is not competent to participate.
 

Saffie

Registered User
Mar 26, 2011
22,514
Near Southampton
Whoever is responsible for the Legal and Financial Welfare of your relative, must take independant legal advice from a suitable solicitor. The keyword here being independant.
Nero has said there is no LPA or Deputy appointed, Maureen, therefore it would seem it has to be the CoP.

Their is no LPA or anything else in place
 

cragmaid

Registered User
Oct 18, 2010
7,941
North East England
The point I was trying to make, Saffie, is simply that someone has to make a response to the request and, if the lady has capacity, she needs to seek legal advice first. If she has no capacity, then of course the CoP must be contacted by somebody in order that a representative can be appointed. But whover makes the response, they must seek legal advice.
 

Saffie

Registered User
Mar 26, 2011
22,514
Near Southampton
I know, but I think the Nero says in the first post that someone will have to sign on her behalf so presumably the lady does not have capacity. However, I don't know if that has been proved but it certainly seems she might be vulnerable to pressure to sign from this solicitor. I think someone should contact the CoP but who? I think that perhaps Nero might ring them and ask for advice so that they are aware of this anyway.
 
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nitram

Registered User
Apr 6, 2011
20,884
North Manchester
A time scale of events for 2015 would be interesting:-

1) Friend changes their mind and instructs solicitor to draw up new will with different beneficiaries.

2) Friend dies.

3) New will unsigned by friend is submitted to Probate Office and rejected.

4) Solicitor requests beneficiaries of old, presumed valid, will to agree to a deed of variation to change beneficiaries to those of the new unsigned will.

Did the solicitor have a reasonable amount of time to ensure the new will was signed?

Are they now panicking?

The present capacity of your relative seems to be being judged by
'She is currently in a CCH in London and the staff say anything she signs would not hols up because of her illness...'.

Has any formal assessment of her capacity been made?
Does the solicitor know that she lacks, or may lack, capacity?
 

Chemmy

Registered User
Nov 7, 2011
7,591
Yorkshire
A time scale of events for 2015 would be interesting:-

1) Friend changes their mind and instructs solicitor to draw up new will with different beneficiaries.

2) Friend dies.

3) New will unsigned by friend is submitted to Probate Office and rejected.

4) Solicitor requests beneficiaries of old, presumed valid, will to agree to a deed of variation to change beneficiaries to those of the new unsigned will.

Did the solicitor have a reasonable amount of time to ensure the new will was signed?

Are they now panicking?

The present capacity of your relative seems to be being judged by
'She is currently in a CCH in London and the staff say anything she signs would not hols up because of her illness...'.

Has any formal assessment of her capacity been made?
Does the solicitor know that she lacks, or may lack, capacity?
We also even don't know for sure if the friend who died had capacity - who is to say she wasn't coerced in some way by the 2015 beneficiaries or some other parties to exclude Nero's aunt, as this meant more in the pot for them.

The whole thing stinks like a bag full of kippers. There is one legal will and someone is clearly trying to exclude an old lady from her rightful inheritance. "She's is a care home. She doesn't need it any more" - you can hear it all now.

I'd be informing the COP in the first instance in writing of my concerns and instructing the CH staff that the aunt should in no way receive any dubious visitors, particularly anyone with a briefcase;)
 

Nero1234

Registered User
Nov 3, 2015
28
Update

We also even don't know for sure if the friend who died had capacity - who is to say she wasn't coerced in some way by the 2015 beneficiaries or some other parties to exclude Nero's aunt, as this meant more in the pot for them.

The whole thing stinks like a bag full of kippers. There is one legal will and someone is clearly trying to exclude an old lady from her rightful inheritance. "She's is a care home. She doesn't need it any more" - you can hear it all now.

I'd be informing the COP in the first instance in writing of my concerns and instructing the CH staff that the aunt should in no way receive any dubious visitors, particularly anyone with a briefcase;)
The friend who died had capacity and had updated her will in the past 6 months because some of the people in the 2003 will had passed away and there was several changes to be made to the 2003 will
What is considered reasonable time by the uk funeral plan company to have the 2015 will signed i believe the changes were made about june 2015
 

Saffie

Registered User
Mar 26, 2011
22,514
Near Southampton
There is one legal will and someone is clearly trying to exclude an old lady from her rightful inheritance. "She's is a care home. She doesn't need it any more" - you can hear it all now.
Nero's relative is not being excluded from the new will though her share might well have been reduced but we don't know that.
I'm suspicious of the part played by the funeral planners as the charity who uses one of these but give it their name also asks the elderly to leave them money in their wills.

My relative is included in the 2015 will but not as the executor
 

Nero1234

Registered User
Nov 3, 2015
28
Updated

Nero's relative is not being excluded from the new will though her share might well have been reduced but we don't know that.
I'm suspicious of the part played by the funeral planners as the charity who uses one of these but give it their name also asks the elderly to leave them money in their wills.
I believe 3 well known charities were named by the friend in the 2015 will which was not recognised by the probate office, and my relative will get less from any alterations via a deed
 

jugglingmum

Registered User
Jan 5, 2014
5,865
Chester
I think Nitram has summed this up very well, the 2003 will is the valid will, the 2015 will has no legal validity BUT if the 2003 beneficiaries wish to sign a deed of variation as they want to honour the wishes of the deceased they can, if they have capacity.

Any solicitor who attempts to get someone without capacity to sign risks being struck off.

Nero states that there is no LPA and no deputy, so is the aunt still deemed to have capacity to be operating her own affairs? Otherwise how are her care home fees paid?

Is she self funding and unlikely to run out of funds and need LA funding, if so singing away assets via a deed of variation would be deprecation of assets.

In law anyone who predeceases is ignored in a will so those named in the 2003 who have died are no longer beneficiaries, so maybe there was an attempt to pass assets to their children.

There is nothing to stop the other beneficiaries signing a deed of variation for their share of the inheritance.
 

Nero1234

Registered User
Nov 3, 2015
28
Update

I think Nitram has summed this up very well, the 2003 will is the valid will, the 2015 will has no legal validity BUT if the 2003 beneficiaries wish to sign a deed of variation as they want to honour the wishes of the deceased they can, if they have capacity.

Any solicitor who attempts to get someone without capacity to sign risks being struck off.

Nero states that there is no LPA and no deputy, so is the aunt still deemed to have capacity to be operating her own affairs? Otherwise how are her care home fees paid?

Is she self funding and unlikely to run out of funds and need LA funding, if so singing away assets via a deed of variation would be deprecation of assets.

In law anyone who predeceases is ignored in a will so those named in the 2003 who have died are no longer beneficiaries, so maybe there was an attempt to pass assets to their children.

There is nothing to stop the other beneficiaries signing a deed of variation for their share of the inheritance.
Thank you this forum has been a great help to me and i appreciate all of the quick replies to the questions, if my relative and the other beneficiery who passed away in the 2003 will who would now carry out the role of executor in the 2003 will ?
 

2jays

Registered User
Jun 4, 2010
11,598
West Midlands
Thank you this forum has been a great help to me and i appreciate all of the quick replies to the questions, if my relative and the other beneficiery who passed away in the 2003 will who would now carry out the role of executor in the 2003 will ?
I googled and saw this

https://anthonygold.co.uk/latest/blog/when-an-executor-of-a-will-loses-mental-capacity


And this

https://www.gov.uk/wills-probate-inheritance/if-the-person-left-a-will
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