Currently in the process of setting up Poas. When do you decide that it should be invoked? Has there been a particular incident or time when you have thought that this is it, and done the necessary steps to invoke it? I am just wondering how bad my friend needs to get before it is invoked.
When to invoke Poa?
- Thread starter Cherryade
- Start date
It depends on the drafting of the POA. The donor can opt for it being activated as soon as it is registered so that their attorney can assist them straight away, or they can opt for it only to be activated once they have lost capacity. The new online form makes these 2 options very clear. If you're thinking you need to be acting as your friend's attorney soon then perhaps the less restrictive wording would suit you both better?
Poa has to be invoked by certification from a doctor. That's the way this particular document has been done for the circumstances.
My question was, at what point have you done this? How far along the road of decreasing abilities have you said, now is the time? Or has there been a particular incident that has made you do it?
My question was, at what point have you done this? How far along the road of decreasing abilities have you said, now is the time? Or has there been a particular incident that has made you do it?
I started to use the financial poa a short time after we were told my husband would qualify for attendance allowance as he didn't understand why - he had forgotten he had been diagnosed with Alzheimer's. I left it a while but once he could not be left alone for more than very short time I applied for AA using the poa. Our solicitor had advised registering them both immediately they were done so they were ready so I just had to get a certified copy to send off with the application. It seemed appropriate as he would have missed out on the money and he was starting some day care which had to be paid for.
Are you in the UK? I certainly didn't have a certificate from anyone to invoke Mum's PoA. Once I realised that I was handling most of her financial affairs, and it would be easier to have official use of the bank cards, I took the PoA documents in to the bank.
OK, I see. My own POAs (registered in 2015) require certification of incapacity by a doctor, that is what I want, and I guess that is what your friend wanted. In your original post you wrote that you were in the process of setting up POAs, so I took that to mean that they were still being drafted or had not yet been registered.
If the POAs have already been registered with the OPG then you have to go with what they are, unless the donor wants to revoke them and start again, which they probably don't want to do. Apart from anything else that would be expensive.
If, however, the documents have not yet been sent in to the OPG and their fees have not been paid, the donor would be able to sign replacement POA documents that could be registered and activated without a doctor's certificate.
Do you already know which doctor you would be asking to provide the certificate? Does your friend already see a psychiatrist via the Community Mental Health Team or similar? If not, then you could ask a GP to sign, but I believe that not all GPs are willing to do this as they are not mental health specialists.
I guess you are wondering how to judge when incapacity has been reached? In your situation I would be asking myself: "Who will I get to sign a certificate of incapacity and, if there is no obvious person, how do I access a suitable doctor?" The time may not yet be right to activate the POA but, since it could take a while to do so, it wouldn't do any harm to have the conversation with the doctor in advance.
Without this clause it's really simple - financial LPA can be used straight after registration with the donor's permission, for health & welfare one you have to wait until mental capacity has been lost. GPs are not overly happy to be brought into this, as capacity is a fluctuating thing. That's why I'm against putting such clauses in an LPA, but I guess it can't be helped now. So you need to judge for yourself when you think your friend is no longer capable in dealing with his finances himself, then find a doctor who is able and willing to provide you with the official signature you need.
My Mum's LPA for finance and property was registered straight away in 2011 but I only started 'using' it in 2012 when we discovered she had been persuaded to sign up to 27 different charities by direct debit. I phoned and said I was LPA and not to send any more info, not to phone, to take her details off the database and not to sell her details on to anyone else. One or two I managed to get cancelled almost the day after she had signed up to them. Others I 'persuaded' Mum to cancel two at a time on each visit to one of the ATMs in the bank.
After that it was in 2013 I found a massive pile of financial correspondence unanswered/unfiled so just squirrelled it out of the house to deal with. Mum was adamant there was nothing wrong with her and still denies it (garn) so I had to practice subterfuge in her best interests. Then my brother and I visited Mum's bank together, with her, explaining we had to,tell them about the LPA and she had to be there "as those are the rules". It was clear Mum had No Idea what was happening. From that point we gently and gradually got bank statements sent to us, bills sent to us and signed cheques/direct debits as necessary. It felt too important to not act and I had to be bold in nosying round Mum's house to find stuff and get to the bottom of things. Can't say it's not been hard work. Just still do a bit at a time otherwise I get overwhelm. By the way as LPA you can complete and claim Attendance Allowance without the person with dementia even knowing! I wish I had known this ages ago as Mum missed out on financial help via AA. Good old CAB were fantastically helpful. Good luck!
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After that it was in 2013 I found a massive pile of financial correspondence unanswered/unfiled so just squirrelled it out of the house to deal with. Mum was adamant there was nothing wrong with her and still denies it (garn) so I had to practice subterfuge in her best interests. Then my brother and I visited Mum's bank together, with her, explaining we had to,tell them about the LPA and she had to be there "as those are the rules". It was clear Mum had No Idea what was happening. From that point we gently and gradually got bank statements sent to us, bills sent to us and signed cheques/direct debits as necessary. It felt too important to not act and I had to be bold in nosying round Mum's house to find stuff and get to the bottom of things. Can't say it's not been hard work. Just still do a bit at a time otherwise I get overwhelm. By the way as LPA you can complete and claim Attendance Allowance without the person with dementia even knowing! I wish I had known this ages ago as Mum missed out on financial help via AA. Good old CAB were fantastically helpful. Good luck!
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Judging by the replies, I don't think I have made myself clear. I am not talking about Finance POA. I am talking about health and welfare. I do not want to get into a discussion of the whys and wherefores it is this way. Simply to say that in Scotland we do things differently and it is this way. The person for whom a POA has been registered, has to be deemed incapable and this certified by a medical professional, before the POA is invoked. (Unless this person is still capable and they can ask for it to be invoked at any time. Or indeed revoked).
So, has there been a point or situation when you have decided to invoke a Health and Welfare POA either for yourself or your partner/relative/friend? I am trying to judge what sort of behaviour or loss of faculties would be thought to be the time for invocation (is that a word?).
So, has there been a point or situation when you have decided to invoke a Health and Welfare POA either for yourself or your partner/relative/friend? I am trying to judge what sort of behaviour or loss of faculties would be thought to be the time for invocation (is that a word?).
"In your situation I would be asking myself: "Who will I get to sign a certificate of incapacity and, if there is no obvious person, how do I access a suitable doctor?""
I would be asking a different question: "Will the person/organisation being asked to accept the power demand a COP3" which can take some time to be processed.
Unless otherwise specified a COP3 can be signed by a variety of people.
The practitioner may be a registered:
– medical practitioner, for example the GP of the person to whom the application relates;
– psychiatrist
– approved mental health professional
– social worker
– psychologist
– nurse, or
– occupational therapist who has examined and assessed the capacity of the person to whom the application relates.
In some circumstances it might be appropriate for a registered therapist, such as a speech therapist or occupational therapist, to complete the form.
https://formfinder.hmctsformfinder.justice.gov.uk/cop003-eng.pdf
I would be asking a different question: "Will the person/organisation being asked to accept the power demand a COP3" which can take some time to be processed.
Unless otherwise specified a COP3 can be signed by a variety of people.
The practitioner may be a registered:
– medical practitioner, for example the GP of the person to whom the application relates;
– psychiatrist
– approved mental health professional
– social worker
– psychologist
– nurse, or
– occupational therapist who has examined and assessed the capacity of the person to whom the application relates.
In some circumstances it might be appropriate for a registered therapist, such as a speech therapist or occupational therapist, to complete the form.
https://formfinder.hmctsformfinder.justice.gov.uk/cop003-eng.pdf
