What is the Procedure for Putting Someone in a CH against the Spouse's Will?

[Long-Suffering]

My mum is 100% against my dad going into a CH, but I can see that the time will come when it'll have to happen. The social services have also said they will try to keep him at home until they feel mum can no longer cope. When that happens, if mum is still against him going into care, what will the authorities do? Will she have to go to court? Can they just come in and forcibly take him away? If dad says he doesn't want to go, will that make a difference? Who ultimately has the final say? As I can see a high possibility of this happening, I'd like to know in advance what to expect.

Thanks

LS

 

[Jessbow]

If she has capacity to make a decision, then I believe the decision is hers, and no one elses. I don't think anyone can force the issue.

 

[Long-Suffering]

If she has capacity to make a decision, then I believe the decision is hers, and no one elses. I don't think anyone can force the issue.

Thanks, Jessbow. The social worker worded her email to make it sound like they could take dad away at their discretion. That's why we've been a bit on edge.

LS

 

[canary]

I dont know everything about this and dont know the details, but I can tell about a couple of incidents that I have experienced.

Mum was adamant that there was nothing wrong with her and wouldnt go to her GP, then didnt go to any of her appointments at the memory clinic and point blank refused any help. Social Services phoned her up (!) to talk to her and she told them that she did all her own shopping, cooking, laundry, gardening etc etc, when in reality she was doing none of it. She was not eating properly, or drinking, or washing, or changing her clothes and I was pulling my hair out. I contacted SS and because she had not been assessed as lacking capacity they had to assume that she did have capacity, so as she had refused any help they wouldnt do anything. Eventually, the crisis came. She had a TIA and ended up in hospital. While she was in there her dementia became impossible to ignore. She had a capacity test and was found to have lost capacity and they said it was not safe to send her home, even with carers - so she was placed in a care home and has been there ever since.

The other incident I know about (but not in so much detail) concerns a friend of mine whose husband has fronto-temperal dementia and he became very aggressive. She did not want him to go into a home (and he didnt want go either) even though friends (including me) said that we thought that he should. Eventually he trashed the kitchen and hit her with his stick, fracturing her collar-bone. Ambulance and police we called and he got sectioned. He went first to a special unit and then to an EMI dementia home where he still is.

I dont know if any of this helps and I expect that someone else will be along who knows more than me.

 

[Long-Suffering]

I dont know everything about this and dont know the details, but I can tell about a couple of incidents that I have experienced.

Mum was adamant that there was nothing wrong with her and wouldnt go to her GP, then didnt go to any of her appointments at the memory clinic and point blank refused any help. Social Services phoned her up (!) to talk to her and she told them that she did all her own shopping, cooking, laundry, gardening etc etc, when in reality she was doing none of it. She was not eating properly, or drinking, or washing, or changing her clothes and I was pulling my hair out. I contacted SS and because she had not been assessed as lacking capacity they had to assume that she did have capacity, so as she had refused any help they wouldnt do anything. Eventually, the crisis came. She had a TIA and ended up in hospital. While she was in there her dementia became impossible to ignore. She had a capacity test and was found to have lost capacity and they said it was not safe to send her home, even with carers - so she was placed in a care home and has been there ever since.

The other incident I know about (but not in so much detail) concerns a friend of mine whose husband has fronto-temperal dementia and he became very aggressive. She did not want him to go into a home (and he didnt want go either) even though friends (including me) said that we thought that he should. Eventually he trashed the kitchen and hit her with his stick, fracturing her collar-bone. Ambulance and police we called and he got sectioned. He went first to a special unit and then to an EMI dementia home where he still is.

I dont know if any of this helps and I expect that someone else will be along who knows more than me.

Hi Canary,

Thanks. That's helpful. I didn't understand some of the things you mentioned. I haven't heard the phrase "capacity" before. I'm guessing they test the person's capacity for making a decision? Is there a standard test? Can we request it? No one has mentioned it to us. Does TIA mean a stroke? So in your mum's case, I'm guessing you accepted the doctors' decision as a matter of course, so I guess you don't know what would have happened if you had disagreed with their decision that it was unsafe for her to go home?

I'm familiar with sectioning because my mum has been sectioned in the past and I know that is a pretty immediate event. I was a teenager at the time. I went to the doctor with my dad and told him how mum's mental health was, and the very next day she was taken to a psychiatric hospital. BTW, what is an EMI dementia home?

Unfortunately, I guess it's just a matter of waiting for some nasty event to occur that forces mum to accept dad going into a home. It'd be so much better if she'd let it happen without us having to wait for him to have a stroke or become dangerously violent.

Thanks again.

LS

 

[Beate]

If someone is deemed to no longer have capacity, others will have to decide for them. For instance, if your mum wanted your dad to go into a care home she could probably do this against his will if he no longer has the capacity to decide what's best for him. A best interest decision could be made and it's one of those scenarios where having a health and welfare LPA would help.
However, if your mum who is of sound mind decides she wants to keep him at home even though it will cause her carers breakdown, I don't think there is much anyone could do. Usually social services are only too happy letting this occur as it saves them money. If your dad was so aggressive that he had to be sectioned however he could well end up in a care home as a result of this.
Capacity and best interest is a minefield but quite frankly, social services rarely bother with carers who don't want their help so I wouldn't worry too much about any enforcement action. However, if your mum eventually admits defeat they should help her find a care home.

 

[canary]

Sorry to have used abbreviations. Yes a TIA is a small stroke. Capacity is indeed the ability to make and understand decisions. Here is a fact sheet you might find helpful
http://www.alzheimers.org.uk/site/scripts/documents_info.php?documentID=354
Capacity testing has to be done by certain people - doctor, social worker and maybe some others that I dont know about. I dont know exactly how its tested, Im afraid. Mums SW tested for mums capacity in the hospital. Unfortunately, it is not cut and dried as capacity can fluctuate and its a bit of a grey area anyway.
I accepted the doctors decision to go into a care home because this is what I wanted, but until mum had been shown to have lost capacity they could not over-rule her. Before mum went into the care home permanently there was what is called a "best-interest" meeting where people involved in her care attended. In mums case this was me, mum, her GP, her SW and the manager of the care home. At this meeting everyone could have their say and at the end of it a decision was made about what would happen. The decision was that mum should stay permanently in the care home.

An EMI is an older term for a dementia unit - it stands for Elderly Mentally Infirm (you can see why they changed it!) and is usually a separate locked unit.

Im sure there must be other scenarios for people going into residential care against their and their families wishes.

 

[Long-Suffering]

If someone is deemed to no longer have capacity, others will have to decide for them. For instance, if your mum wanted your dad to go into a care home she could probably do this against his will if he no longer has the capacity to decide what's best for him. A best interest decision could be made and it's one of those scenarios where having a health and welfare LPA would help.
However, if your mum who is of sound mind decides she wants to keep him at home even though it will cause her carers breakdown, I don't think there is much anyone could do. Usually social services are only too happy letting this occur as it saves them money. If your dad was so aggressive that he had to be sectioned however he could well end up in a care home as a result of this.
Capacity and best interest is a minefield but quite frankly, social services rarely bother with carers who don't want their help so I wouldn't worry too much about any enforcement action. However, if your mum eventually admits defeat they should help her find a care home.

Thanks, Beate.

Me and mum have joint financial and property LPA for dad, but not health and welfare. What you say about them not bothering with people who don't want help makes sense, as they seem so busy anyway. I know it takes weeks to get any kind of response from them for anything.

 

[Long-Suffering]

Sorry to have used abbreviations. Yes a TIA is a small stroke. Capacity is indeed the ability to make and understand decisions. Here is a fact sheet you might find helpful
http://www.alzheimers.org.uk/site/scripts/documents_info.php?documentID=354
Capacity testing has to be done by certain people - doctor, social worker and maybe some others that I dont know about. I dont know exactly how its tested, Im afraid. Mums SW tested for mums capacity in the hospital. Unfortunately, it is not cut and dried as capacity can fluctuate and its a bit of a grey area anyway.
I accepted the doctors decision to go into a care home because this is what I wanted, but until mum had been shown to have lost capacity they could not over-rule her. Before mum went into the care home permanently there was what is called a "best-interest" meeting where people involved in her care attended. In mums case this was me, mum, her GP, her SW and the manager of the care home. At this meeting everyone could have their say and at the end of it a decision was made about what would happen. The decision was that mum should stay permanently in the care home.

An EMI is an older term for a dementia unit - it stands for Elderly Mentally Infirm (you can see why they changed it!) and is usually a separate locked unit.

Im sure there must be other scenarios for people going into residential care against their and their families wishes.

Hi Canary,

Thanks for explaining all that. I'll take a good look at the link. So basically, they wouldn't be able to grab dad and whisk him away unless he did something so severe that it required him to be sectioned. Any other relocation process would be slower and need a capacity assessment and a best interest meeting first. That would hopefully give all of us time to consider the options.

LS

 

[canary]

Hi Canary,

Thanks for explaining all that. I'll take a good look at the link. So basically, they wouldn't be able to grab dad and whisk him away unless he did something so severe that it required him to be sectioned. Any other relocation process would be slower and need a capacity assessment and a best interest meeting first. That would hopefully give all of us time to consider the options.

LS

As I said, there may be other scenarios that I dont know about, but I think that is probably true.

 

[care2share]

As I said, there may be other scenarios that I dont know about, but I think that is probably true.

Hello Long-Suffering. This is how it works. Dad ends up in hospital for some reason. He loses capacity to make decisions before giving anyone Power of Attorney for his for Health and Welfare. The hospital hold a " Best Interest Meeting". The hospital decide Dad needs to be placed in a care home. You are invited to go and see a couple of care homes that Social Services suggest (these may be very many miles away from where you live), that is unless you have POA for Finances, in which case you may be able to choose where he goes. This is where Dad remains, possibly for the rest of his life. Mum is devastated. Because Dad has lost capacity, a Deprivation of Liberty Safeguard is placed on Dad. This will ensure he is not free to leave this care home or anyone else free to take him. Depending on his financial status, he may fund his own care. Mum or someone has to apply to The Court of Protection to be his Deputy for his finances.

 

[LYN T]

After my OH was sectioned for the forth time a best interests meeting was held and I was told Pete had to go to a CH. I was also told that on the third time he was sectioned but I managed to convince them that I could cope. The last time his daycare had been withdrawn due to violence so I suppose they were concerned about me as well.

I didn't have much say in it I'm afraid. I didn't have a H&W LPA only finance.

I'm sorry that you and your family are going through this

Lyn T XX

 

[Long-Suffering]

Hello Long-Suffering. This is how it works. Dad ends up in hospital for some reason. He loses capacity to make decisions before giving anyone Power of Attorney for his for Health and Welfare. The hospital hold a " Best Interest Meeting". The hospital decide Dad needs to be placed in a care home. You are invited to go and see a couple of care homes that Social Services suggest (these may be very many miles away from where you live), that is unless you have POA for Finances, in which case you may be able to choose where he goes. This is where Dad remains, possibly for the rest of his life. Mum is devastated. Because Dad has lost capacity, a Deprivation of Liberty Safeguard is placed on Dad. This will ensure he is not free to leave this care home or anyone else free to take him. Depending on his financial status, he may fund his own care. Mum or someone has to apply to The Court of Protection to be his Deputy for his finances.

Hi Care2share

Is this what has happened in your case? Mum and I have joint property and financial LPA for dad, but now health and welfare. The solicitor at the time said H&W wasn't really needed for most people. It sounds like I really need to persuade mum to get H&W as soon as possible. Thanks for the info.

LS

 

[Long-Suffering]

After my OH was sectioned for the forth time a best interests meeting was held and I was told Pete had to go to a CH. I was also told that on the third time he was sectioned but I managed to convince them that I could cope. The last time his daycare had been withdrawn due to violence so I suppose they were concerned about me as well.

I didn't have much say in it I'm afraid. I didn't have a H&W LPA only finance.

I'm sorry that you and your family are going through this

Lyn T XX

Hi Lyn,

Thanks. Sorry to hear you had no say in the decision. I need to try to get a H&W LPA with mum if it's still possible.

Thanks,

LS

 

[Long-Suffering]

I've just spoken to mum about trying to arrange the H&W LPA and to my amazement she didn't kick up a fuss and even asked me if I could sort it out, so I've just mailed the solicitor. Fingers crossed!

LS

 

[care2share]

I've just spoken to mum about trying to arrange the H&W LPA and to my amazement she didn't kick up a fuss and even asked me if I could sort it out, so I've just mailed the solicitor. Fingers crossed!

LS

Hi LS. Yes, this is exactly what happened. Please go and see if it is still possible and if so, do it immediately. I hope it is not too late. The consequence of not doing so can be truly devastating, very expensive and intrusive. Good Luck.

 

[Long-Suffering]

Hi LS. Yes, this is exactly what happened. Please go and see if it is still possible and if so, do it immediately. I hope it is not too late. The consequence of not doing so can be truly devastating, very expensive and intrusive. Good Luck.

Thanks, Care2share.

I have had a reply from the solicitors and they are hopefully bringing the H&W forms round next week for my parents to sign. Fingers crossed.

LS

 

[Sooty2]

I've just spoken to mum about trying to arrange the H&W LPA and to my amazement she didn't kick up a fuss and even asked me if I could sort it out, so I've just mailed the solicitor. Fingers crossed!

LS

me and my husband are constantly frustrated by the outside agencies who are making life so hard for us, even with Power of Attorney its just a minefield, my MIL clearly has no capacity to make decisions yet she would pass every capacity test thrown at her, something is seriously wrong, we get so tired running round in circles, we need an assessment from social services, we need your mother in laws permission, she wont give it she has dementia, cant do it then, so so annoying, frustrating tedious boring and the rest.................

 

[Long-Suffering]

Hi Sooty,

It's amazing how many institutions have no clue about POA. Even banks and places where you'd expect them to be on the ball.

What has really annoyed me recently is the number of times people will ring up and demand to speak to dad about something. When you tell them he has dementia and it's pointless, they insist anyway.

Even worse is when I ring to try and cancel things he no longer needs, like his cell phone account, etc, and they tell me they have to speak to him directly. It's not even like they need some secret information from him that only he would know. They are satisfied just hearing a male voice confirm that it's him and yes he wants to cancel. No proof of ID is asked for, so they could be talking to anyone, but still they demand to talk to him. Makes no sense whatever.

LS

 

[Beate]

I remember that dilemma when using the business credit card at work which was in the owner's name. Fine while using it online but if you had to call them for something they insisted to speak to the card owner. And he hated having to speak to them so I usually recruited the nearest male colleague to answer on his behalf!