Violent behaviour,an update,advice please anyone.

Discussion in 'ARCHIVE FORUM: Support discussions' started by kayleigh999, May 4, 2007.

  1. kayleigh999

    kayleigh999 Registered User

    Apr 6, 2007
    53
    Birmingham,England
    Hi All

    I posted a few days ago about Mom (82 with recent diagnosed Vad) she was on recent anti-psychotic medicine but had attacked Dad with knife and I wondered what to do. You were all so helpful and taking your advice I called back in the psychiatrist who upped the medicine and said ANY repeat of this behaviour he must be told and Mom taken into hospital .

    Moving on to today,urgent call from Dad at 9am to get there as soon as possible. Did that and have had the worst morning of my life. Mom convinced (again) Dad is not Dad from the night before at 11.30pm and told him to leave house. Dad thinking she would have either clamed down by this morning or forgotten episode said he will go in the morning (today) amazingly she has remembered and held him to it.

    Mom is hysterical and violent. I personally saw her over the morning grind her fist into his face, punch him in it and knock off his glasses and 4 separate times go for him with her walking stick. She alternated this with running outside in the street shouting "help" and asking the decorators they have in to help her and attempting to dial 999.

    My problem is this; he WOULD NOT let me get the doctor back in. He said Mom will be taken in (which is correct) and she will never come back out. He said he will endure what she has to dish out and "only get him back in when she knifes me again" I can hardly believe what I am hearing,its so ridiculous but feel so,so sad that my Dad is that loyal to her to stand it.

    He did try to stop her going out into street at one point and they had a scuffle over the door,him trying to keep it closed. I am amazed to report her strength was equal if not above his. She is under 5ft and 6 stone,he ,average size and weight male. Only way to pacify her was to take Dad out and pretend he was leaving which was more for his own safety. Unsuprisingly the workmen suddenly had an urgent call! Whether it was wise to leave her alone I dont know but on our return she was so pleased the "real" Dad was back and proceeded to tell him all about the other B*****D that was in the house all morning.

    I have waffled on a bit here but I do have a question and that is ;should I have ignored Dad's wishes and called Doctor? I had the number on me. I cant bear to think my actions alone IE the call, will result in my Mom being sectioned. Dad has begged me not to. I rang my Brothers, one said "ring yes, defenietly" the other one I got in touch with said " if Dad said he can cope,leave him too it, and take a step back" that one incidently sees them about 4 times a year. So conflicting advice there too.

    Has anyone been in this position? It is all new to me as Mom only diagnosed 2 weeks ago but is detoriating at a rate of knotts. I know by reading some posts that some peoples relatives have been diagnosed for years but Mom seems to have gone from 0-60 in 2 weeks. Her inital MMSE test at diagnosis was 14,does that have any bearing I wonder? I forgot to add during all this I suspect Mom had a TIA. I have never witnessed one but it was like a hypnotist said "sleep" to her and she fell back on sofa with eyes closed for around 30 seconds. Dad said after it happens alot. Again he would not let me call regular GP as he afraid they would send her in ( to the psychriatric ward)

    My stress is through the roof, I honestly dont know where I am drawing my reserves of mental energy and coping strategies from. I had a horrible thought today, if she had dies 2 years ago after her major stroke I am sure she would have been better off. Phyisically she made a remarkable recovery, its very evident now that there are come-backs. Forgive me for going on,I know its similar to my other post but I was hoping for some improvement. I feel so sad for Mom but equally my heart breaks for Dad. I can not now question his loyalty after what I witnessed today.

    To sum up I am between a rock and a hard place. Next time (maybe later or tomorrow!) do I listen to Dad or do I get Mom taken in hospital and looked at. Will she ever come back out..............

    Thanks for "listening" it actually has helped to write this down.

    K xxx
     
  2. Kathleen

    Kathleen Registered User

    Mar 12, 2005
    639
    West Sussex
    Thank goodness I have never been in your position, but I would urge you to phone that number asap and tell them exactly what is happening to your parents.

    I think I would rather have a Dad who was upset with me than sit by his bedside or attend his funeral when Mum actually uses the knife.

    Sorry if you find that shocking, but that seems a real possibility. I can understand your Dad sticking by your Mum, but they both deserve better times than they are having at the moment.

    I am pleased the decorators left too, she could so easily have attacked them.........in no way is any of this anyones fault, but you must act quickly to prevent serious damage done to your Dad or the next person she takes a dislike to.

    I am sorry, but I don't think you have a choice.

    Kathleen
     
  3. Skye

    Skye Registered User

    Aug 29, 2006
    17,000
    SW Scotland
    Hi Kayleigh

    First of all, a big (((((hug))))). You sound as if you need it. What a terrible day you've had.

    I would tend to agree with Kathleen, that you should ring the psychiatrist. He obviously recognises the seriousness of the situation, and you should certainly keep him informed. It doesn't sound as if the mediction is having any effect.

    It's terribly difficult, your dad is going to think you went behind his back. Little white lie time? You could tell your dad that the psychiatrist knew your dad wouldn't want to call him, so he made you promise to keep him up-to-date with how the meds were working.

    I really think you owe it to you all to get your mum admitted.

    Love,
     
  4. Natashalou

    Natashalou Registered User

    Mar 22, 2007
    426
    london
    Please

    call and get help. however hard, and your father may well "hate" you for doing so, this situation cannot be allowed to continue.
    Bad enough your father is at such risk, but supposing she attacks a stranger, a child even?
    clearly, her behaviuor is irrational, and nobody can predict what might happen, but it also seems to be escalating...get help before it is too late
     
  5. jenniferpa

    jenniferpa Volunteer Moderator

    Jun 27, 2006
    39,439
    Dear Kayleigh

    I am so sorry that you have been put in this position. I'm going to agree with everyone else: call that doctor ASAP. Easy for us to say, of course, we don't have to live with the consequences. Look at it this way: 2 out of 3 siblings (i.e. you and brother 1) think you should do this. However, I understand that you are in the situation of damned if you do, damned if you don't. If you call the doctor and he decides to section her (note it will be HIS decision not yours) your father may never forgive you. He will, however, still be alive, as opposed to being dead, which is the worse case scenario of failing to do anything. This is one of those grown-up decisions we sometimes have to make: choosing the lesser of two evils. Best case scenario: you call the doctor, your mother is sectioned, they get her medication under control, and she comes back out.

    I also like Hazel's white lie idea, just make sure to get the doctor to back you up.

    Jennifer
     
  6. BeckyJan

    BeckyJan Registered User

    Nov 28, 2005
    18,972
    Derbyshire
    You are getting excellent advice here - hope it all helps you.

    .

    Thinking about you - it is an almost impossible situation for you but it will work out - take care of yourself in all this. Best wishes Beckyjan
     
  7. jenniferpa

    jenniferpa Volunteer Moderator

    Jun 27, 2006
    39,439
    I just wanted to add to what I said above. Best case scenario of doing nothing: she suddenly and consistently decides that your father isn't a stranger and the wrangles die down. Now I mention this only to point out how unlikely this scenario is, paricularly without further medical intervention. it would seem from what you have reported so far, the chances of this best case scenario occurring is vanishingly small. It hasn't happened to date, why would it happen now?

    Love

    Jennifer
     
  8. janetruth

    janetruth Registered User

    Mar 20, 2007
    563
    nuneaton
    HI kayleigh

    I agree with others, you must get in touch with the doctor, explain the situation , tell him your dad seems to think he can cope. Get him to come round and say he was makeing a return call, as he was concerned about them both,
    What a terrible thing it would be if your mum was to do something really bad.
    Is your mum on any medication?
    You are in a very difficult position, I only offer advise and I really hope you can get sorted very soon.

    Take care
    Janetruth x
     
  9. sue38

    sue38 Registered User

    Mar 6, 2007
    10,856
    Wigan, Lancs
    Kayleigh,

    This is a terrible situation for you. I haven't been in your position but it doesn't take much imagination to anticipate a similar situation.

    If my Dad was to act in the way your Mum is, I can imagine my Mum acting like your Dad i.e. doing everything to avoid him being sectioned.

    I'm afraid you have to take on the role of the responsible adult and do what you what you know is best and accept the consequences. Those consequences may be so much better than the alternative.

    I am so sorry you are going through this without the support of your siblings, but you are on the spot and in the best place to make this decision. I hope the support you receive here on TP helps you.

    Thinking of you.

    Sue xx
     
  10. Margarita

    Margarita Registered User

    Feb 17, 2006
    10,824
    london
    #10 Margarita, May 4, 2007
    Last edited: May 4, 2007
    I was thinking about you both the other day I know its not the same , but it brought a memory back .

    when my mother finally call the police on my brother when the TV went out of the window and a kettle of hot water over her , that happen 30 years ago ,
    he was not fighting with police when they put the white jacket on him , but they still put it on him ( they don't do that any more )
    it was so diffrent in how they do now days section someone

    While I was in Gibraltar in 03 , my brother went psychotic on me , he did not touch me , but he was acting very strangely so I call the doctor in , who check him out then called the ambulance that took him to hospital then to a secure ward , after a week he was put back on the right medication and came home .

    another time last year in UK , set fire to his room , police came took him carmly away to hosptail sent him back home after a few hours .

    What I am trying to or wanted to tell you the other day is that being section is not like it was in those days 30 years ago , all they would do to your mother is put her in a pharisaic ward and assess her behavior for a few days or weeks , then send her home with the right medication also if your father still wanted her to come home , sounds like he would

    You have to try to convince your father that getting your mother section is not how it was in the olds days , putting people in white jackets , its not like that at all now .

    next time call the doctor in , if your so scared call 999 police and the ambulance will arrive police talk to your father and mother and take your mother to hosptail .
    If she would go, if not (police can’t force her to get in ambulance , but at lest they cram the situation down )


    All you mother need is to be assesses in a unit, and she get the real help she needs , for her furture care, but sounds like your father is just scared of doing that as you already no , but his fear will stop your mother geting the right help that they could give her in a unit like that
     
  11. Sandy

    Sandy Registered User

    Mar 23, 2005
    6,847
    #11 Sandy, May 4, 2007
    Last edited: May 5, 2007
    Hi kayleigh999,

    I really agree with all the good advice being given.

    One thing in your post really caught my attention. You said "I cant bear to think my actions alone IE the call, will result in my Mom being sectioned."

    I can understand why you might feel this way but this simply is not the case. The only thing that will result in your mother being taken into hospital is the medical judgement that she is a danger to herself and/or others.

    You were impressed by the psychiartrist and posted that "He said we MUST tell him if any more incidents like this happen as we cant let this situation go now."

    I would say that you must stand by that advice and let him know that the situation is still dangerously voilatile. Your father may not be able to take this step himself, but if your mother's violent behaviour can be addressed everyone will be happier and safer - including your mother.

    Take care,

    Sandy
     
  12. Sunlight

    Sunlight Registered User

    Feb 12, 2007
    55
    I've never been in such a situation but I would also call the doctor. I'd say that he had just come on a follow up visit - hopefully he would be understanding enough about the situation (probably come across similar before) and go along with the little white lie. Whatever you decide to do I hope things work out for you.
     
  13. May

    May Registered User

    Oct 15, 2005
    627
    Yorkshire
    #13 May, May 5, 2007
    Last edited: May 5, 2007
    Hi Kayleigh

    So sorry you are going through this, been there and worn the teeshirt....:( . My Mum had the same sort of delusions/hallucinations about my Dad, we were lucky in that she never 'armed' herself with anything more frightening than the loo-brush or coat-hangers (they still hurt though..when used with vigor). She did however cause quite a bit of damage to household effects (curtains, blinds etc). I left this as long as I could because my Dad was saying the same as yours, but it got to the stage where she was a danger to herself as well as us (and she was on anti-phsychotics). My Mum went into hospital as an emergency admission after a horrendous week, I'll not lie and say it was easy, it wasn't, but I still believe that it was for the best. The hospital stabilised her meds and she came home 7 weeks later. We had her at home for another 9 months. She went into a nursing home 6 weeks ago now (and she's comfortable and well cared for :) but it's still hard getting used to it..:( ) . Getting her stabilised gave Mum & Dad another nine months together at home, even if Mum doesn't know that, Dad does and it has helped him feel we did as much as we could, while we could.
    I would urge you to call the doctor, don't leave it until you get to the emergency stage, it's hell. Damned if you do, damned if you don't, the priority is safety, and getting Mum on some sort of even keel, that's what's best for her right now.
    Whatever you decide, sending you hugs and support, 'cos it's an awful position to be in.
     
  14. Taffy

    Taffy Registered User

    Apr 15, 2007
    1,314
    You and your poor dad what a sad situation for all concerned.I think that mum should be placed in hospital were at least the doctors could have the opportunity to sort medications. The outcome could go either way, mum may come home and be manageable but try to imagine been in mum's shoes, where confronted by a complete stranger (sadly this is how she see's it.) the anxiety, the utter fear that would overwhelm her, my concern would be (god forbid) if something did happen, how you would cope. Our minds do become clouded in stressful situations, please consider doing what the psychiatrist asked, I know your caught between a rock and hard place and this miserable disease keeps throwing challenge after challenge but I hope for all your sake things will soon be manageable. Regards Taffy.
     
  15. Nell

    Nell Registered User

    Aug 9, 2005
    1,170
    Australia
    I do agree with everyone else - you will have to tell the doctor.

    BUT . . . . I am wondering if you could persuade the doctor to collaborate with you in some way, so your Dad doesn't have to know you told the doctor?? (I'm probably trying to have my cake and eat it too!)

    Could he (Dr.) phone your Dad and ask, outright, if there have been any more episodes? It is possible your Dad might tell the Doc. himself - that could let you avoid the worst part of your Dad's displeasure.

    On the other hand, if your Dad denies it, I think you will still have to tell the doctor and "face the music" with your Dad, no matter how distressing this is for you both.

    I do feel so much for you - wish, wish, wish we could have easier solutions to the problems this dreaded disease throws up.

    {{{HUGS}}}
     
  16. Grannie G

    Grannie G Volunteer Moderator

    Apr 3, 2006
    69,584
    Kent
    Dear Kayleigh, however terrible your stuation is, and it really is bad, you must get help to get your mother`s behaviour under control. I know both you and your dad are acting out of loyalty to your mum, but sometimes loyalty is in no-one`s best interest.

    Your mother is in danger from her own behaviour, your dad is in danger, and you have far too much to be responsible for.

    I would contact the doctor, without your dad`s knowledge and ask him what he can do to help. He may himself have a suggestion that will work.

    When my husband was first diagnosed with AD and refused to keep appointments, the psychiatrist offered to pay a home visit `just in passing`, so he could see him.

    I`m sure there must be more help out there than you are getting.

    Take care
     
  17. Good Morning Everyone.

    I am new to this; as you may know; reading post after post, I swing one way then the other; trying to visualize each and every opinion stressed about this subject; it gets harder for me to know what I would do, in these situations; I can only follow my heart; although I should follow my head.

    I see Kayleigh's father as a man that loves his wife; and remembers her the way she was; and his love and loyalty just cannot be put aside; just because of his safety; I also see a man that that love's and honours his marriage vows for better or worse.

    I am a man, like Kayleigh's father; and we respond differently from women in most situations; I see Kayleigh's father; as I see myself.

    What are we; once we loose our girls; how can you expect us to betray our girls, when they need us the most; ok you have your opinions; but so does Kayleigh's father; this is his life; and he knows best for his welfare and his girls welfare; if he looses her; his life will end there; even if he lives for a long time; he will be dead inside.

    As a man; I think we should be allowed to give our all; if we choose to; it is our life; good or bad.........Micky.
     
  18. Kathleen

    Kathleen Registered User

    Mar 12, 2005
    639
    West Sussex
    Hello Micky

    I can also see that Kayleigh's father is doing what he thinks is best for his wife and I admire him for it. But there are other people involved too.

    His daughter who can see the danger if nothing is done to help her Mum, but is desperate not to hurt her Dad, a no win situation for her.

    The other person is her Mum, who obviously is the other half of a loving partnership, surely she deserves to feel as calm and peaceful as possible.

    Does she deserve to feel frightened to the point of attacking her husband?

    Wouldn't it be better for her to get her medication sorted out so that she no longer feels the terror and anger she is feeling at the moment.

    This issue raises a lot more questions than answers.

    Of course, I speak as a daughter, not a wife or partner, but we children are concerned for both the AD parent and the carer parent...........we don't want to lose both of them.

    Kathleen
     
  19. jenniferpa

    jenniferpa Volunteer Moderator

    Jun 27, 2006
    39,439
    Hi Mickey
    What you have posted is a moving tribute to your own relationship and the way you feel about your wife. The problem, as I see it, is that none of us knows exactly what is going on inside another person's head. All we can do is make suggestions on the basis of the presented information.

    From what Kayleigh has said in this post and others, here is a situation where 1) much of the time, her mother is convinced that her father has been replaced by an imposter 2) she is terrified of this imposter and has several times attacked him with both blunt and sharp instruments 3) her father has retaliated in kind on occasion 4) her father spends a great deal of his time out of the house (and from Kayleigh's posts this appears to be both from choice and to avoid a difficult situation).

    Now we have no way of knowing what her father's motivation is for being unwilling to call the doctor again: it could be anything from the most selfless reasons up to and including the most selfish. Let's face it, he probably doesn't know himself - love, guilt, fear of what people would say : you name it, it's probably in there somewhere.

    Whatever his reasons, Kayleigh as a loving daughter is on the outside looking in (as all children are) and trying to balance everyone's needs. It's not as if, I'm afraid, her mother and father are united in the intention of going through this long process of decline together: Kayeligh's mother has repeatedly asked Kayleigh for assistance in ridding herself of the "imposter".

    What I'm trying to say is: this is not simply the case of a loving couple telling a child to let them get on with things as they see fit. Each of them, in their own way, is in danger and we fear that ignoring the situation could have potentially tragic results.

    Jennifer
     
  20. #20 mickyinlondon, May 5, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: May 5, 2007
    Hi Kath & Jenni.

    I am no judge of others situations; I just do not have any answers to give; I am new to all this; if I have a problem myself; its that I always follow my heart; knowing that I may be wrong; and should have followed my head; but we all are what we are; and what we have experienced through-out our lives.

    And it is also true we do not know what goes on in another persons head; this is true of normal healthy people; just as much as sick people.

    I personally; do not see why a person with dementia; should not be understood; just because they make no sense to those of us that have no illness.

    My point was for Kayleigh's father; he knows his wife better than any living person can ever know; from what I assume; he loved her as a girl; shared those moments of their children being born; worked and grew old with his girl by his side; loved her like no other could love her; but more important; he knew her better than anyone else.

    OK; I may be wrong; this may not be true; I just feel it may be true;and if its only half true; then let the man do what he thinks is best for his girl; because he owes her that much; and without them both; none of his children would have ever been born; she may be on the edge of life now; but once she was so very real to her husband; and that he cannot, nor ever will forget; that fact.

    I add; I am new to this; so my judgements are not based on experience; just feelings in my heart.......Micky
     

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