Using Donors Money for 'Granny Flat'

Stroller

Registered User
Feb 15, 2017
16
0
Hi, My FIL has advanced Dementia and has lost mental capacity (Assessed by Social Workers and his GP)
My Wife is sole LPA for both Finance and Welfare.I am Reserve Attorney, My FIL is a Widower.
We have promised him that Care Homes would be the last option when he can no longer care for himself, and
would look to care for him ourselves in our Four Bed Detached in Cheshire (both my Wife and I are retired).
Rather than spend £400 pound plus Solicitors fees applying through the Court pf Protection, can anyone advise on using Donors money to convert an Integral Garage at our house into a self-contained 'Grannie Flat for FIL.
Looking at costs of Care Home fees (£30,000 - £40,000 per year), the cost of the conversion would pay for itself in one Year.
I am sure this is not uncommon in our circumstances and would appreciate any experiences other Forum members may have had.
 

Beate

Registered User
May 21, 2014
12,179
0
London
I don't have any experience of this, just one word of warning - you could do this with all the best intentions but the need for a care home might come anyway. The promise to never send someone to a care home is well-meaning but not always do-able I am afraid. And if the time comes you'll have spent an awful lot of money that could have gone on care fees. Plus, him living in a self-contained flat is not the same as actually him living in your house where you could always have an eye on him. And the time will come when he might need 24/7 supervision. Wouldn't it therefore be much easier to have him live in the main house without any need for a garage conversion? As a long-term solution for a PWD it could be fraught with problems. What would you do if he needed supervision at night for example? What if he wanders off while your back is turned? If he's already in advanced stages, the move to different surroundings might be very confusing, especially at times he might be alone in the flat.
 

Stroller

Registered User
Feb 15, 2017
16
0
I don't have any experience of this, just one word of warning - you could do this with all the best intentions but the need for a care home might come anyway. The promise to never send someone to a care home is well-meaning but not always do-able I am afraid. And if the time comes you'll have spent an awful lot of money that could have gone on care fees. Plus, him living in a self-contained flat is not the same as actually him living in your house where you could always have an eye on him. And the time will come when he might need 24/7 supervision. Wouldn't it therefore be much easier to have him live in the main house without any need for a garage conversion? As a long-term solution for a PWD it could be fraught with problems. What would you do if he needed supervision at night for example? What if he wanders off while your back is turned? If he's already in advanced stages, the move to different surroundings might be very confusing, especially at times he might be alone in the flat.
Thanks Beate, much appreciated.
Perhaps I did'nt make myself clear in my post.
We have told my FIL a Care Home would be the 'last option'. not 'never sending him to a Care Home'
Also the Annexe (Granny Flat) has an internal door to the main house and my FIL would use the house as we do, eating with us etc. The Flat has an en suite and television area and has an emergency call system. He would much rather have this solution than living in the one spare room we have in the main house.
As for 'an awful lot of money that could have gone on care fees', if he lives for ,say, four years with us ,it would save his Estate circa £120,00
 

Bunpoots

Volunteer Host
Apr 1, 2016
7,342
0
Nottinghamshire
I understand your maths and it makes sense to me but I think you should call the OPG and ask them for their position. There's no need to involve a solicitor at this stage. I work in property developing and in my area I would expect an ensuite conversion to cost about £15k with careful budgeting.
 

jugglingmum

Registered User
Jan 5, 2014
7,085
0
Chester
Others will know more about this than me, but I think you are allowed to do this.

However have you considered everything, it is very hard to be a carer 24/7, read around some of the threads and it can be soul destroying.

I couldn't have my mum live with my (small children among other reasons) and she wasn't quite needing a care home. I was aware of sheltered extra care (sometimes referred to as assisted living) and she is very happy in the flat I found her, and she will stay there beyond the point at which she needs a care home if she had been in her own home or my home.

There is significant provision in Cheshire West, don't know about Cheshire East, and worth a look and think about. My mum is well cared for but still independent in her own flat, she moved in in time to get used to the regular carers, and knows and likes them so after an initial battle it has proved easy to increase care.

I used this website to find my mum's flat:

http://www.housingcare.org/assisted-living-extra-care-housing/area-1-cheshire-pg2.aspx
 

Amethyst59

Registered User
Jul 3, 2017
5,776
0
Kent
The only slight snag that I can foresee, is that it could be argued you are using the donor’s money to increase the value of your own property.
This is quite apart from the burden of caring for someone with dementia, which has been well covered above!
 

canary

Registered User
Feb 25, 2014
25,018
0
South coast
I think that there are several things to think about here. Firstly, what is your line in the sand?
When he needs help with washing/bathing?
When he becomes incontinent?
When he starts being up all night waking people up?
When he goes out in the middle of the night to "go home" dressed only in his PJs?
When he becomes afraid of being left on his own and follows people everywhere (including the bathroom)?
When he becomes aggressive and/or violent?
When he loses mobility and needs hoisting?

I would also say that your dad is in the middle stage rather than advanced and could go on for several years

Another problem would be if his savings fall below £24,000 and you are looking at Local Authority help with paying for his fees. Normally, and property he owns would be counted in this, but the money has gone to you and the Local Authority could consider this Deprivation of Assets.and refuse to pay the fees. I dont know how much he has got in savings, but do bare in mind that some people go on for much longer than expected in a care home.
 

Leeds

Registered User
Sep 20, 2015
165
0
Hi, I would be very careful as this could be viewed as depreviation of assets further down the line, should PWD needs funding from the local authority. X
 

Stroller

Registered User
Feb 15, 2017
16
0
I understand your maths and it makes sense to me but I think you should call the OPG and ask them for their position. There's no need to involve a solicitor at this stage. I work in property developing and in my area I would expect an ensuite conversion to cost about £15k with careful budgeting.
Thanks Bunpoots, Appreciate your post.
 

jenniferpa

Registered User
Jun 27, 2006
39,442
0
My feeling is, with the amount of money you are talking about, it would be penny wise, pound foolish to not spend £400 on an application to the cop. This wouldn't necessarily protect you from the deprivation of assets issue, but if that did come up, it would provide you with firmer footing to argue your case.
 

Stroller

Registered User
Feb 15, 2017
16
0
Others will know more about this than me, but I think you are allowed to do this.

However have you considered everything, it is very hard to be a carer 24/7, read around some of the threads and it can be soul destroying.

I couldn't have my mum live with my (small children among other reasons) and she wasn't quite needing a care home. I was aware of sheltered extra care (sometimes referred to as assisted living) and she is very happy in the flat I found her, and she will stay there beyond the point at which she needs a care home if she had been in her own home or my home.

There is significant provision in Cheshire West, don't know about Cheshire East, and worth a look and think about. My mum is well cared for but still independent in her own flat, she moved in in time to get used to the regular carers, and knows and likes them so after an initial battle it has proved easy to increase care.

I used this website to find my mum's flat:

http://www.housingcare.org/assisted-living-extra-care-housing/area-1-cheshire-pg2.aspx
Thanks jugglingmum,
Yes 24/7 caring can be hard, and we have discussed this with FIL. I think its doable with four of us at home besides FIL.
 

Stroller

Registered User
Feb 15, 2017
16
0
I think that there are several things to think about here. Firstly, what is your line in the sand?
When he needs help with washing/bathing?
When he becomes incontinent?
When he starts being up all night waking people up?
When he goes out in the middle of the night to "go home" dressed only in his PJs?
When he becomes afraid of being left on his own and follows people everywhere (including the bathroom)?
When he becomes aggressive and/or violent?
When he loses mobility and needs hoisting?

I would also say that your dad is in the middle stage rather than advanced and could go on for several years

Another problem would be if his savings fall below £24,000 and you are looking at Local Authority help with paying for his fees. Normally, and property he owns would be counted in this, but the money has gone to you and the Local Authority could consider this Deprivation of Assets.and refuse to pay the fees. I dont know how much he has got in savings, but do bare in mind that some people go on for much longer than expected in a care home.
Thanks Canary
I agree he is in the middle stage. We are fully aware of the pitfalls on this journey.
My FIL is a wealthy man and DoA would not come into it.
 

Stroller

Registered User
Feb 15, 2017
16
0
My feeling is, with the amount of money you are talking about, it would be penny wise, pound foolish to not spend £400 on an application to the cop. This wouldn't necessarily protect you from the deprivation of assets issue, but if that did come up, it would provide you with firmer footing to argue your case.
Thanks jenniferpa.
I am coming to think along the same lines as you re.COP.
I would have thought my query is a common one but obviously not, judging by my posts.
 

Pete R

Registered User
Jul 26, 2014
2,036
0
Staffs
For those that have even vaguely mentioned Deprivation of Assets can they please provide one example, just one will do, of where DoA has been used by an LA when someone has built a "Granny Flat" that is obviously the cheaper option than a CH.

How on earth can that be using money to avoid CH fees?:confused:
 

Kevinl

Registered User
Aug 24, 2013
6,050
0
Salford
I agree with Pete, building a granny flat whether it works out long term or not is a deprivation of assets nor is modifying your home with things like stair lifts.
One thing I would say is do some research before you draw up the plans or you might get hit with 2 lots of council tax as a flat/annex can be defined as a separate household, there are a list of criteria like if there are separate front doors, cooking and bathing facilities and the like which could be a problem as should the flat be empty you would still be liable for CT on it.
Best to describe it as an extension I would think.
K
 

love.dad.but..

Registered User
Jan 16, 2014
4,962
0
Kent
Thanks Canary
I agree he is in the middle stage. We are fully aware of the pitfalls on this journey.
My FIL is a wealthy man and DoA would not come into it.
I would have loved to have been able to do this for dad...he self funded his way through nursing home...but if money wise it had been possible to do it at my property I would have bought in dementia carers and nurses as needed. I wish you good luck and really hope it works well
 

tryingmybest

Registered User
May 22, 2015
638
0
If your wife already has an LPA, a mere phone call to the OPG for advice is all that is required. I don't understand why you feel you would need to spend £400 and use a solicitor to go through CoP? That would only be the case if you wanted to apply to be a CoP Financial Deputy but you don't need to do that if your wife already has an LPA in place!

Incidentally, I was categorically warned by SS not to build an extension to my home when my Mum came to live with me, as it would be increasing the value of my home with her money. It was never my intention to do so as I wanted her to be in the house with me as part of the family and I wanted to be able to hear her in the next room at night if there was a problem which I wouldn't be able to do in an extension. Despite her being fairly well off, they still said it would be a deprivation of assets, so I would be very careful if I were you.
 

love.dad.but..

Registered User
Jan 16, 2014
4,962
0
Kent
If your wife already has an LPA, a mere phone call to the OPG for advice is all that is required. I don't understand why you feel you would need to spend £400 and use a solicitor to go through CoP? That would only be the case if you wanted to apply to be a CoP Financial Deputy but you don't need to do that if your wife already has an LPA in place!

Incidentally, I was categorically warned by SS not to build an extension to my home when my Mum came to live with me, as it would be increasing the value of my home with her money. It was never my intention to do so as I wanted her to be in the house with me as part of the family and I wanted to be able to hear her in the next room at night if there was a problem which I wouldn't be able to do in an extension. Despite her being fairly well off, they still said it would be a deprivation of assets, so I would be very careful if I were you.
The OP has stated his FIL is a wealthy man and doa would not come into it so presumably if a care home was needed at a later stage he would be self funding til end of life
 

Kevinl

Registered User
Aug 24, 2013
6,050
0
Salford
This "Despite her being fairly well off, they still said it would be a deprivation of assets" is a bit of an oxymoron isn't it. if she's "fairly well off" then the LA may well never become involved in paying for her care so no deprivation of assets will have occurred.
If you had applied for LA funding then they may tell you this is the view they would take, but they would say that wouldn't they? If the extension costs £40k and year in a care homes in the area costs the same then it's a good use of the money if it works for just one year.
K
 

canary

Registered User
Feb 25, 2014
25,018
0
South coast
I think the problem is that you are using the donors money to improve your own property. I agree that this would be good value from the CoPs viewpoint and if the donor will be self-funded to the end this will not be a problem.

The trouble come if the donor lives in the care home much longer than anticipated and runs out of money. There was a thread recently from someone whose parent had lived in the care home for 7 years and had gone down to the upper limit. The LA, however, said that the money should have lasted a lot longer and would not pay. The poster had CoP deputyship, so could justify that the money had been spent in the PWDs best interest (though they did not say what it was spent on). The LA, however, was claiming Deprivation of Assets, I think this sort of thing might become more common as the LAs become more and more strapped for cash.