1. Expert Q&A: Living well as a carer - Thurs 29 August, 3-4pm

    As a carer for a person living with dementia, the needs of the person you care for will often come before your own. You may experience a range of difficult emotions and you may not have the time to do all the things you need to do. Caring can have a big impact on both your mental and physical health, as well as your overall wellbeing.

    Angelo, our Knowledge Officer (Wellbeing) is our expert on this topic. He will be here to answer your questions on Thursday 29 August between 3-4pm.

    You can either post questions >here< or email them to us at talkingpoint@alzheimers.org.uk and we'll answer as many as we can on the day.

Trackers and human rights

Discussion in 'I have a partner with dementia' started by marionq, Jun 9, 2015.

  1. marionq

    marionq Registered User

    Apr 24, 2013
    5,752
    Female
    Scotland
    Knocked for six today by John's new social worker telling me there are rights issues about using trackers and I should consult the POA. What fresh hell is this!

    He started getting lost last October and we have been doing all sorts to keep him safe. When he recently got lost for ten hours sparking a huge police search then the GPS tracker was added to his mobile phone round his neck to keep him safe.

    I cannot for the life of me think what is wrong about being able to find him if he gets out on his own and gets lost!
     
  2. LYN T

    LYN T Registered User

    Aug 30, 2012
    6,968
    Brixham Devon
    Neither do I marion. It's madness:mad: You wouldn't be looking after your OH if you know he gets lost and do nothing about it. Political correctness gone mad. Is the SW fully qualified or one of the Dementia Advisers with no experience one hears about? Would the 'SW' take responsibility for her 'advice' /views if your OH comes to harm without the tracker?

    Do what you know to be right

    Love

    Lyn T XX
     
  3. Beate

    Beate Registered User

    May 21, 2014
    11,630
    Female
    London
    She is an idiot. Some trackers are provided through social services and no one has asked us DOLS questions about it. POA has nothing to do with it. Ask to speak to her supervisor and complain.
     
  4. marionq

    marionq Registered User

    Apr 24, 2013
    5,752
    Female
    Scotland
    She is a community care social worker who assessed him at the day centre apparently and tells me he has " no capacity" and needs one to one care. Surprise, surprise I am that one to one. Because he is high risk the day centre will not give him an extra day.

    So what happens next. He gets lost and is high risk but it may be against his human rights to be tracked. He cannot have more help but my solution to make it easier for everyone is not the answer. What is the answer? I think I know what she was hinting but more day care would avoid that.

    What a world!
     
  5. Pete R

    Pete R Registered User

    Jul 26, 2014
    2,046
    Staffs
    #5 Pete R, Jun 9, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2015
    Hi Marionq,

    I believe your new SW must have been nodding off at the back and only partially heard what was said at the public funded, drink fuelled, all expenses paid seminar when someone at the front mentioned "The Human Rights Act, .:)

    Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights provides that:

    1. Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home
    and his correspondence.

    2. There shall be no interference by a public authority with the exercise of
    this right except such as is in accordance with the law and is necessary in a
    democratic society in the interests of national security, public safety or the
    economic wellbeing of the country, for the prevention of disorder or crime,
    for the protection of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights
    and freedoms of others.
    Abridged version.....

    So for a public authority (and a few others, but not you) Article 8 has to be considered in almost everything it does and after a while it is just easier to do that rather than think about if it is necessary.

    As the HRA (nearly only) applies to the government or public bodies I reckon you are very much in the clear and doubt whether you will be carted off to Brussels for trial as that definitely would be against your Human Rights.:D

    I use covert trackers, cameras and listening devices in my "day" job and often use any evidence in both civil and criminal courts. Not once has it been rejected.

    I wish you well.:)
     
  6. sistermillicent

    sistermillicent Registered User

    Jan 30, 2009
    2,951
    so what's the alternative, keep him locked up? wouldn't that be against his human rights rather more than a tracker?
     
  7. Witzend

    Witzend Registered User

    Aug 29, 2007
    4,293
    SW London
    There is nothing wrong with it. The SW is probably stuffed full of theory, tick-box-ery, and hardly any real-world practice. Ignore him/her.
     
  8. Pete R

    Pete R Registered User

    Jul 26, 2014
    2,046
    Staffs
    If you want to hit back you could always tell the SW that you are infact tracking a mobile phone and not the person who happens to be carrying it. :)
    (This is mentioned in Home Office guidance to the Police on the use of covert trackers)
     
  9. Spamar

    Spamar Registered User

    Oct 5, 2013
    6,919
    Suffolk
    Like it Pete.
    Next time he gets lost, marion, send for her to report immediately to you and go find him! No need to tell her you know where he is as you have put a tracker on him.
    She won't forget that one!
     
  10. Grey Lad

    Grey Lad Registered User

    Sep 12, 2014
    5,737
    North East Lincs
    What nonsense some of these people come out with. If he keeps getting lost you need a tracker - simple as that.
     
  11. truth24

    truth24 Registered User

    Oct 13, 2013
    5,726
    North Somerset
    Silly person. What would she do if she was in your shoes
     
  12. Acco

    Acco Registered User

    Oct 3, 2011
    228
    My simple answer: Do what you think is right and appropriate and ignore those who are clearly unable to apply good common sense to a situation.
     
  13. Countryboy

    Countryboy Registered User

    Mar 17, 2005
    1,408
    Male
    Cornwall
    #13 Countryboy, Jun 10, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2015
    I don't quite understand the tracker query I have an Iphone4s and my wife can pin point my location from her phone when I go to Silverstone motor bike races she can track my journey up and back I also have a two way talk system inside my motor bike helmet we don't use it because of my dementia we use it because it's facility that's on the phone and it makes sense

    The Phone Tracker is a tool that allows you to track the location of another smartphone user. Now you can follow the movements of a friend, your spouse, your child, or a co-worker with your iPhone.

    I found out years ago after I was diagnosed with dementia I didn't really have any Human Rights , after my diagnoses I battled to stay at work , battled to retain my driving licence, i'm still in a on going nine year battle now with Police to get my gun licence back and all because I was diagnosed with Alzheimer's 16 years ago if you wear the T shirt then be prepared to fight for your rights
     
  14. marionq

    marionq Registered User

    Apr 24, 2013
    5,752
    Female
    Scotland
    As you can imagine this issue floated about in my mind last night. I did notice that on the Alz Soc website the use of Assistive Technology and the question of ethics relating to trackers is discussed.

    I'm not sure any definitive advice was reached. I will continue to use the tracker of course but it was my first experience with someone with quite a strong and at times surprising style from social work.

    Being told John does not have capacity was also a shock. I might know that but it is a blow to hear other people make judgements - very foolish of me, of course.
     
  15. Countryboy

    Countryboy Registered User

    Mar 17, 2005
    1,408
    Male
    Cornwall
    Hi mariong I hope you don’t think I was being judgemental towards you because I wasn’t , I was only passing on information regards myself and what we do. everyone with dementia is different the unfortunate thing is the after a diagnoses of dementia
    { with bureaucrats everyone is assumed to be the same but of course were not }
     
  16. marionq

    marionq Registered User

    Apr 24, 2013
    5,752
    Female
    Scotland
    Tony I meant the social worker was judgemental about Johns condition having only met him once. Now common sense tells me she is probably right but it is hard to hear that the person you have known for most of your life does not have the capacity to make decisions.

    I am in another new reality now. It never stops. Each phase takes a bit of adjusting to and of course each persons experience differs so I can't be sure what happens next.

    Good wishes.
     
  17. mrjelly

    mrjelly Registered User

    Jul 23, 2012
    317
    West Sussex
    As I understand the legal position, capacity is always with respect to a particular decision at a particular time. This means that a person can have capacity to make some decisions but not others. There is also a formal process to go through before a judgement about it can be made. Different professionals can have different opinions, so it is nowhere near as black and white as your social worker is suggesting.
     
  18. Countryboy

    Countryboy Registered User

    Mar 17, 2005
    1,408
    Male
    Cornwall
    Hi mrjelly I think your right it's not black or white we must remember people with dementia like me left school at age 15 so not much point testing my brain power on my knowledge I need to tested on practical things and older people with dementia possibly left school age 14,
     
  19. its a struggle

    its a struggle Registered User

    One size DOES NOT fit all.

    Morning Tony,

    I think you have hit on something really important!

    MIL left school at about 14 (Grammar school I'll have you know, her comment)
    However, really keen on education, very politically active during her working life & always on some course or other at evening classes or through WEA (Workers Educational Association). So it's no surprise when she can list about a million animals beginning with 'C' (more than me anyway), knows who every political leader around the world is, and seem perfectly together when test time comes around - she's been in training for it all her adult life:D
    Now, everyday living - forget it. I'm sick of hearing I'm going to get to that in a minute.

    The much vaunted 'Person centred treatment' seems to fly out the window where Dementia is concerned. If our LO's don't fit into the right box then they will chop something off until they do........

    Chris
     
  20. nmintueo

    nmintueo Registered User

    Jun 28, 2011
    847
    UK
    What does he (or she?) mean, 'consult the POA'?
    Is someone else the attorney, and he wants you to talk to them?
    Are you the attorney, and he wants you to read the document?

    Is he threatening to interfere if you use any sort of tracker?
     

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