Time to take cheque book away?

[CY505]

Acting skills required!

Amy in the US has it nailed. My sister-in-law was my Mum's favourite companion because she made her feel secure - this was because my SIL is a brilliant liar! She is a foster carer and so is also great with toddlers. You have to completely change your mindset when someone has dementia, all that matters is keeping the agitation low and happy times up, and trying to provide the living situation that they feel most comfortable in (this may not be the one for which they expressed a preference before the dementia set in). Never confront someone with what they have done, they won't understand, and as you say, will forget anyway. Also my Mum got very agitated when she thought we had been spying, so you have to find a reason why you know things. A bit later on, this is easier as you can say "you remember, we talked about it yesterday", whether you did or not.

The most elaborate lie we told Mum was when we found she wasn't showering at all. We faked a letter from the "District Nurse", thanking her for her help with their survey and agreeing that she needed someone there when she showered in case of a fall, so a nurse would come on Wednesday to help! Then we sent round an agency carer in a uniform and Mum smelt a lot sweeter after that. But there was also no confrontation and no loss of dignity.

I wish you all the very best for the future. I think if I had realised earlier that the best thing I could do for my Mum was to lie with panache, this would have saved her a lot of agitation when she was trying to make sense of me telling her the truth - it wasn't her truth. She couldn't change that truth, so we had to go with that. Your post reminds me of how my Mum was five years ago - we've had some difficult times but also some laughs, I'm sure you will too.

Amy in the US, the book sounds interesting. I suppose I'd like to think that what I/we were doing was as morally right as possible.

The cheque book removal hasn't happened yet.

Yesterday morning we had a call from my brother in law who lives abroad. He'd asked his father on the phone about his spending £100 in a month on DVDs and his Dad had got very agitated. How did his (older) son know? Through the bank statements that my husband gets, he was told.

Then my father in law got agitated. Why were his two sons spying on him? Brother in law - who is one of those absent siblings who likes to lay down the law - told us it wasn't worth upsetting his Dad and he doesn't mind if it's only £100 a month spent.

My husband then went round to pick up his Dad and noticed that there was a newish looking DVD in the bin. He said, 'Oh did this fall off the table?' At which point his Dad said he'd begun watching it - but it hadn't been interesting.'

Normally he gives all the unwanted ones - of which there are many - to us. Because he thinks we'd like them. And we pass the great majority to Oxfam.

So the bin thing seemed like guilty (failed) concealment.

I think the cheque book removal is going to happen soon though....

 

[olddog]

Hi there,

I'm my Mum's remote carer. She has very little financial sense now, and has been defrauded on more than one occasion, with Police involvement. One time she was driven to a bank by fraudsters and persuaded to go in and withdraw money to give them !

Although my Mum isn't capable of managing her own money any more and I do have POA, I decided to make my Mum's account and joint account with me. She agreed with that. The Bank agreed not to send her any cash cards or cheque books, I manage the account and make payments, mainly online, when necessary. My Mum can still feel she has her own account, although she does not use it except through me, but without the risks.

My personal experience of using POA is that the bureaucracy around it makes it massively time wasting and an option of last resort.

 

[AnneED]

There were recently some very good programmes on UK TV (Channel 4 I think) called Dementiaville which I would consider required watching. If you can get hold of them on i Player or similar it would be worth it. It clarifies ways in which you can work with the person with dementia's 'alternative world.' The need is not to tell the 'truth' as we see it but to make the person comfortable emotionally with the alternative truth as they see it.

Mum accepts that she has 'some forgetfulness' but has tablets which 'mean she is fine.' I would never say to her that she has dementia. I was truthful with mum a couple of times, on really important issues, in what I thought was a really sensitive way and it was a disaster. One concerned her asking where her car was (it's been gone for 2 years as she was unsafe to drive) and one was her request to visit a deceased much loved Auntie. Mum was very upset in a way she rarely is and the next time I saw her asked the same questions again anyhow. I now lie routinely and mum is very comfortable with that. The car is in the garage being repaired, and the Auntie is in hospital so we can't see her yet.

Mum doesn't have a cheque book 'because banks are not using them now' and I manage her money 'because it's much easier to do it on the computer - banks expect you to do that now'. I have to put money in her purse as otherwise she doesn't think to top it up from her 'spare cash' drawer so she always has at least £50 and that seems to make her feel secure, and means she can pay for things such as hairdressers when her friend takes her. If she loses £50 it's no big deal. She was also defrauded and that caused the removal of the cheque book.

 

[loveahug]

One of the best things we ever did was to scratch of the 3 digit code on the back of mum's bank card (after taking a note of it!). Without the code she couldn't be phone scammed by anyone.

 

[Amy in the US]

Mrs Moose, I've not forgotten about you, but I haven't located the book I mentioned. I will get back to you with that information.

I hope all is as well as possible for you and your family.

CY505, I love your story about the letter from the DN regarding sending a carer for help with showering! I think that's a great solution with, as you say, positive results for everybody.

 

[ReikiJ]

We'll see how the conversation goes. I think my father in law's temperament and his memory fluctuates a lot. So on some days more 'reasonable' conversations are possible - though as people rightly point out, such conversations may not linger in the the mind.

Because of the profession my husband worked in, I think he is trying to treat his father very much as he would have treated a client. In a way that's ethical. As it was I really had to argue with him about his wish to give his Dad 'another chance', reminding his fater one more time re their former agreement about the cheque book and not making solo purchases.

I said it's pointless doing that. He'll just forget, and spend money that could/should be spent on buying him - for example - badly needed clothing to replace worn-out shirts and threadbare jumpers.

This might just be me, but I do struggle with the terminology 'love lies.' In our case my husband doesn't - sadly - have a lot of affection for his Dad, though he is treating him with care and kindness. So we're just left with the phrase 'lies'....

Hello,I am new to this site but feel I have been struggling with dealing with my mums financial situation and her inability to deal with them causing her pain and frustration for both of us. Just change the word "love" lies to "kindness " lies. I think it's the lie terminology that concerns some people so change it to a word that you are more comfortable with. Eg care truths. I have just removed my mums cheque book and cards and am waiting for her reaction. Best wishes to you.

 

[goldie79]

We'll see how the conversation goes. I think my father in law's temperament and his memory fluctuates a lot. So on some days more 'reasonable' conversations are possible - though as people rightly point out, such conversations may not linger in the the mind.

Because of the profession my husband worked in, I think he is trying to treat his father very much as he would have treated a client. In a way that's ethical. As it was I really had to argue with him about his wish to give his Dad 'another chance', reminding his fater one more time re their former agreement about the cheque book and not making solo purchases.

I said it's pointless doing that. He'll just forget, and spend money that could/should be spent on buying him - for example - badly needed clothing to replace worn-out shirts and threadbare jumpers.


This might just be me, but I do struggle with the terminology 'love lies.' In our case my husband doesn't - sadly - have a lot of affection for his Dad, though he is treating him with care and kindness. So we're just left with the phrase 'lies'....

My husband became incapable of managing his finances, and I took over. ( I have POA). However, he is still very aware that he has several small pensions and savings, and wants to get his hands on large sums so that he can go 'home'. The other week he became very agitated and became convinced that he had been conned out of all his money, and that I was part of the gang responsible. To cut a very unpleasant episode short, he finally physically attacked me. I never knew how to deal with his constant request to go to the bank because he hides any money he can get his hands on, along with his bank card. I hope you get your problem sorted out - it's a minefield.

 

[CY505]

Goldie79, what an awful situation for you. It seems that a lot of people with dementia get fixated on money at some stage, although mercifully it is often a stage. I don't know if you could give him an official looking letter from a "financial advisor" stating where his various savings are, and that they are long term? Something that he could refer back to when he gets agitated? Perhaps you could also tell him that to withdraw large amounts of money he needs to see the bank manager, and he has an appointment next week? You might perhaps produce a set of appointment letters dated a week apart, so you can produce a new one each week. Maybe this sort of approach isn't appropriate for you, but it helped with my Mum to have something written, especially something official, that she could refer to. I hope you have plenty of support in your situation, you are doing a wonderful thing, living with someone with dementia. I certainly couldn't have done it for my Mum. Remember to take care of yourself, too.

My husband became incapable of managing his finances, and I took over. ( I have POA). However, he is still very aware that he has several small pensions and savings, and wants to get his hands on large sums so that he can go 'home'. The other week he became very agitated and became convinced that he had been conned out of all his money, and that I was part of the gang responsible. To cut a very unpleasant episode short, he finally physically attacked me. I never knew how to deal with his constant request to go to the bank because he hides any money he can get his hands on, along with his bank card. I hope you get your problem sorted out - it's a minefield.

 

[MrsMoose]

Just an update. My husband looked at his father's online bank statement and once again his Dad has written a significant cheque to a mail order company for DVDs.

So my husband asked him about this when delivering shopping. He said would his Dad like to let him look after the cheque book. That way they could do any ordering together - as previously agreed. His Dad said no.

So my husband went to see the warden of the sheltered accommodation. As he (husband) has Power of Attorney, she has agreed to check my father-in-law's post before it goes in his pigeonhole and remove any catalogues. (When they arrive each month that seems to trigger the spending.) If we get them instead, we can write to them and ask them not to send any more.

I think my husband has got the point that reasoned discussion isn't really working because of the illness and that a more indirect approach is necessary.

 

[dora]

So my husband went to see the warden of the sheltered accommodation. As he (husband) has Power of Attorney, she has agreed to check my father-in-law's post before it goes in his pigeonhole and remove any catalogues. (When they arrive each month that seems to trigger the spending.)


This is an excellent idea.

If we get them instead, we can write to them and ask them not to send any more.
.

In my experience this does not always work and in one instance triggered a second copy being sent. I would advise a sticker saying "no longer at this address" and if possible, post back in a letterbox out of area.

regards, dora

 

[MrsMoose]

Thanks! Shall pass that tip on.

 

[canary]

Hopefully that will work Mrsmoose, but if the worse comes to the worst, then I think your husband will have to activate his dads POA and inform the bank so that his dad can no longer use his cheques

 

[skaface]

One of the best things we ever did was to scratch of the 3 digit code on the back of mum's bank card (after taking a note of it!). Without the code she couldn't be phone scammed by anyone.

I just took my mum's bank card and didn't give it back to her, so she can't use it, though she can still give her bank details out over the phone from her cheque book, once I find that damn thing that's being stolen too! I already pinch her bank statements when I see them, and I'm in collusion with the carers for them to pick up her post and put it on the dresser in the kitchen so I can get to it first. Underhand but in her best interests. If I could get mum's mail redirected to me I would!

 

[Amy in the US]

book info for Mrs Moose

I am sorry for the delay in the information I promised you, but I have found it. The book title is The Caregiver's Path to Compassionate Decision Making: Making choices for those who can't and the author is Viki Kind, MA. It was published by Greenleaf Book Group Press in the States, 2010. I looked on Amazon.co.uk and there is a paperback edition available there.

If, for whatever reason, you wanted a physical copy of this book and couldn't get it, I would be happy to send you one.

The author is a bioethicist and the entire book deals with making decisions for those who, for whatever reason, are not able to do so themselves, how to decide if you should make decisions, how to make the decisions (several different models/tools/standards), and practical application. From what you've said about your husband, this might appeal to him and perhaps may be helpful.

Hope all is as well as possible.

 

[MrsMoose]

Thanks so much for this Amy. It looks as if I can order a copy via Abebooks.

 

[Amy in the US]

MrsM, you are more than welcome. I hope it's helpful for you (or anyone else reading this thread) and apologize once again for the delay in getting you this information.