This gets worse! re POA

[nerak]

Hi have just spoken to my solicitor he said that if my mother has dementia as POA will need a med cert that its too late and the POA would not be granted?????????????????????? If I even had a few quid on me right now id run for the hills have had palpatations all day but must switch off for awhile now going to sunbathe!!!!!!!!!!

ANy advice on POA would help

 

[Noorza]

Hi have just spoken to my solicitor he said that if my mother has dementia as POA will need a med cert that its too late and the POA would not be granted?????????????????????? Christ if I even had a few quid on me right now id run for the hills have had palpatations all day but must switch off for awhile now going to sunbathe!!!!!!!!!!

ANy advice on POA would help

A person with dementia cannot grant PoA as they lack the mental capacity to make those kinds of decisions. You could ask the solicitor to refer your mother to take a mental capacity test to ascertain whether the specialists they refer her to consider whether she still has capacity or not.

I have re read your post and am not clear do you already have PoA?

The time to sort out PoA is when the person is well and thinking clearly as it gives another person control over their finances and property.

 

[Saffie]

I'm not sure from your post exactly where you are concerning LPA.
If your mother has already made an LPA then it can be registered if she no longer has mental capacity, that's the point of having done it before capacity is lost.
If your mother hasn't arranged an LPA, then she can only do this now if she has the mental capacity to do so. She only has to have mental capacity on the day she signs the LPA. So the first thing to establish is whether she does indeed have the mental capacity to understand what she is signing when she makes the LPA.

If it is established that your mother no longer has mental capacity, then you will have to arrange Deputyship, presuming that her financial assets are more than just state pensions which only necessitate Appoiinteeship, a much less onerous affair!

For Deputyship you, or your solicitor will have to apply to the Court of Protection. This can be done by a solicitor but also by yourself. A number of TPers done it themselves as have I.

 

[Butter]

Many patients have the capacity to make a LPA. My father's GP was happy to sign the LPA. As was my husband's. My solicitor signed mine. We should all make them.

 

[Delphie]

Firstly, don't panic. If, and it is an if, your mum has lost capacity then while a PoA can't be arranged a Deputyship can, as Saffie said.

But a dementia diagnosis doesn't automatically mean that your mum won't understand what a PoA is, so if the solicitor doesn't know her well then it's worth discussing the capacity issue with your mum's GP or even social worker, if she has one. It's probably worth doing so even if the solicitor has met your mum and formed an opinion. Dementia is often unpredictable and your mum only has to understand what's happening at the time of agreeing to the PoA, not the day before or the day after, and she doesn't need to remember doing so. In short, the bar isn't set all that high.

If it's too late and it has to be a Deputyship then, a bit of form filling aside, it's not that big a deal. It's more closely supervised than a PoA but I, personally, would always want to be completely accountable anyway, so in reality the records I keep for my mum, and my husband's aunt, are as thorough as they would be if no one was having a look once a year.

 

[Delphie]

P.S. I've just seen your other thread and you say that your mum is in the early stages and has capacity, so definitely don't panic and sort out the PoA now.

 

[zelana]

Nerak, a diagnosis of dementia doesn't automatically mean that someone has already lost capacity to make decisions for themselves & understand the implications of creating a POA.

This link will give you more information

Has the solicitor spoken to your Mum? It looks as though POA in Ireland is a bit more complex than in the UK but if your Mum can understand what POA is then she should be able to grant EPA.

 

[limafoxtrot]

A person with dementia cannot grant PoA as they lack the mental capacity to make those kinds of decisions. You could ask the solicitor to refer your mother to take a mental capacity test to ascertain whether the specialists they refer her to consider whether she still has capacity or not.

Just because a person has dementia does not mean they lack mental capacity but yes, I would see if either the solicitor can refer your Mum or see her doctor.

Lima x

 

[Noorza]

Just because a person has dementia does not mean they lack mental capacity but yes, I would see if either the solicitor can refer your Mum or see her doctor.

Lima x

Thank you for correcting me, that was my mistake.

My mum's memory doctor advised me to take her for a mental capacity test which would be referred back to them as my brother sees fit to empty her bank account on a regular basis. As it stands I can't do it as she just gets so angry it's not fair to her. Balancing what is right, fair and legal with her emotional well being is like walking a tightrope.

 

[Noorza]

Thanks Zelana, I'm learning, my mistake.

 

[Delphie]

Thank you for correcting me, that was my mistake.

My mum's memory doctor advised me to take her for a mental capacity test which would be referred back to them as my brother sees fit to empty her bank account on a regular basis. As it stands I can't do it as she just gets so angry it's not fair to her. Balancing what is right, fair and legal with her emotional well being is like walking a tightrope.

I'd involve the social services. It sounds like a vulnerable person is being financially exploited. They should be interested and want to do something about it anyway, but there might also be a deprivation of assets issue too.

Good social workers can do an assessment tactfully and discretely so that your mum won't be alarmed.

It's a difficult situation, for sure, but maybe something can be done. Just your brother knowing that people other than yourself are watching might put him off helping himself to your mum's money. Or tell him that if the deprivation of assets issue comes up your mum's local authority will pursue him for the money he's taken, and they can go back years!

 

[limafoxtrot]

Thank you for correcting me, that was my mistake.

My mum's memory doctor advised me to take her for a mental capacity test which would be referred back to them as my brother sees fit to empty her bank account on a regular basis. As it stands I can't do it as she just gets so angry it's not fair to her. Balancing what is right, fair and legal with her emotional well being is like walking a tightrope.

I'm still learning too Noorza

I would definitely, as suggested Delphie, contact Social Services, they should be able to help you with the mental capacity test, especially if you tell them what your brother is doing. Hope you get it sorted out soon,

Lima x

 

[Noorza]

I'm still learning too Noorza

I would definitely, as suggested Delphie, contact Social Services, they should be able to help you with the mental capacity test, especially if you tell them what your brother is doing. Hope you get it sorted out soon,

Lima x

I did call them last year but as mum was willingly giving him the money there was nothing they could do. The Office of the Public Guardian say that as the EPA is now registered he could be in serious trouble. On top of all that a sister who has been largely out of the picture for the last 30 years now believes she should have the PoA instead of me and persuaded mum to start legal action.

I would welcome legal action so someone will tell these people that mum needs protection not court cases or fleecing. My sister has been using the internet to access Mum's account from a city Mum hasn't even been to which the bank say is fraud and they want the police called in, she's been phoning the bank pretending she is mum, which again I can't get the police onto my own family as Mum would hate me for it. I did close down internet and phone access but now the bank won't recognise the PoA so brother can carry on fleecing her.

Honestly I feel like running away some days. It's a mess.


My sister stopped the legal proceedings when I pointed out to her just what kind of trouble she could be in. I've told Mum's CPN and she was doing a referral to the social services again but I haven't heard anything.

 

[Jessbow]

How does your brother manage to get money out of her bank account? is him name on the account? if it is, a POA wont remove his name from the account

 

[Noorza]

How does your brother manage to get money out of her bank account? is him name on the account? if it is, a POA wont remove his name from the account

He uses the card and the pin with mum's permission. He's not named on the account but took mum in so she could tell them to remove me as PoA, then he emptied her account again.

 

[Nebiroth]

I am slightly confused by all this?

There is an EPA? If so, is it registered? If it is registered, who holds the POA granted by it?

As far as I am aware, if a bank account has been changed so that the POA attorney has control of it, the person they hold POA for no longer has the authority to change this because by definition they lack mental capacity.

In short, when the EPA is registered, it is not the case that the attorney gains control of the finances in addition to your mum - they gain control of them in place of your mum.

Also, again as far as I am aware your mum as donor cannot revoke an EPA once it is registered as she is defined as not having mental capacity. She would need to apply to the Court of Protection, or have someone do it on her behalf, they would then examine the case to see if there are grounds for example, the attorney abusing their authority or the person not having actually lost mental capacity. But is is difficult since when the EPA is registered the attorney has to notify the donor and specific relatives so that they can lodge an objection, within a certain time, before the Court grants the attorney their authority.

Before an EPA is registered it is easy to revoke, just a written instruction. An attorney can also in essence 'resign' their duties after registration

If there is an EPA and it is registered then there is no need for an LPA for financial matters - EPA covers that and nothing else, whereas LPA can grant powers over health and welfare too.

 

[Noorza]

I am slightly confused by all this?

There is an EPA? If so, is it registered? If it is registered, who holds the POA granted by it?

As far as I am aware, if a bank account has been changed so that the POA attorney has control of it, the person they hold POA for no longer has the authority to change this because by definition they lack mental capacity.

In short, when the EPA is registered, it is not the case that the attorney gains control of the finances in addition to your mum - they gain control of them in place of your mum.

Also, again as far as I am aware your mum as donor cannot revoke an EPA once it is registered as she is defined as not having mental capacity. She would need to apply to the Court of Protection, or have someone do it on her behalf, they would then examine the case to see if there are grounds for example, the attorney abusing their authority or the person not having actually lost mental capacity. But is is difficult since when the EPA is registered the attorney has to notify the donor and specific relatives so that they can lodge an objection, within a certain time, before the Court grants the attorney their authority.

Before an EPA is registered it is easy to revoke, just a written instruction. An attorney can also in essence 'resign' their duties after registration

If there is an EPA and it is registered then there is no need for an LPA for financial matters - EPA covers that and nothing else, whereas LPA can grant powers over health and welfare too.

It seems the bank is acting incorrectly in taking mum's instruction to have me removed as PoA. I've had PoA for 20 years with no problem, no abuse, just got into hot water for trying to stop my brother from taking her cash - AGAIN! I would do it again and again as I see it as financial abuse, he tells her he'll lose his home and her grandchildren will be on the street, then goes on holiday!

My sister tried to take over the finances but didn't have the PoA so some of what she's done the bank have told me to report her for fraud. I can't do that as Mum wouldn't forgive me.

I've told the OotPG what is happening and they offered to write a letter to the bank saying once it is registered they can't remove me but that hasn't happened yet. I have explained I can't tell them anything about where mum's money is going as I was scared they might think it was me and I'm the only one supposed to have access. They assured me that before any action would be considered they would investigate to see if was me, which its not so I'm in the clear there.

I can't afford solicitors so I think a complaint to the Banking Ombudsman and copying in the CEO of thebank might be the best next step.