Thinking the Unthinkable
- Thread starter DickG
- Start date
Nat,
I don't think we are in disagreement really. I think when AD strikes a younger person it is even more of a tragedy. My sister in law has MS and is almost totally invalid. She is only 56 years old and she can't even hold her new grandbaby. There are many tragic things that can happen to us in life, young or old.
Does that make it any less of a natural process? I don't know. I think we tend to believe that the only natural way to progress through life and die is to grow old and do it. But sadly that isn't always the case.
I have a friend who's 93 year old Mom has AD. She has been in the nursing home for years and is totally unresponsive, can't swallow, can't talk..... nothing. the home called her wanting to put her on nutritional suppliments. She said she couldn't say "no" because it would have made her look bad. But I just wanted to say, WHY? I have a sneaky feeling the home wants to keep the old girl going longer so they can continue to collect the medicaid off of her. I try not to judge, but is there really any quality of life there at all to artificially keep going?
That is what I mean by letting someone go naturally. Unfortunately, AD is a long goodby and not a very pleasant one at that. If my Mom's heart were to stop, I would rather let her go than resussitate her so she can advance in this disease. I think that would be a gift from God.
Would some consider that euthanasia? Or is that letting nature take its course?
Debbie
I don't think we are in disagreement really. I think when AD strikes a younger person it is even more of a tragedy. My sister in law has MS and is almost totally invalid. She is only 56 years old and she can't even hold her new grandbaby. There are many tragic things that can happen to us in life, young or old.
Does that make it any less of a natural process? I don't know. I think we tend to believe that the only natural way to progress through life and die is to grow old and do it. But sadly that isn't always the case.
I have a friend who's 93 year old Mom has AD. She has been in the nursing home for years and is totally unresponsive, can't swallow, can't talk..... nothing. the home called her wanting to put her on nutritional suppliments. She said she couldn't say "no" because it would have made her look bad. But I just wanted to say, WHY? I have a sneaky feeling the home wants to keep the old girl going longer so they can continue to collect the medicaid off of her. I try not to judge, but is there really any quality of life there at all to artificially keep going?
That is what I mean by letting someone go naturally. Unfortunately, AD is a long goodby and not a very pleasant one at that. If my Mom's heart were to stop, I would rather let her go than resussitate her so she can advance in this disease. I think that would be a gift from God.
Would some consider that euthanasia? Or is that letting nature take its course?
Debbie
Margarita
I have been married to Mary for 49 years, I hope we reach 50!
There are so many wonderful memories that I could share - perhaps the best is the photograph I have of the lovely Mary at the age of 24 stood beside Victoria Falls when we lived in Southern Rhodesia (Zimbabwe). If I were to tell you of all the lovely memories I have I would take over TP.
Bless you Margarita for reminding me that there is so much to be thankful for.
Can we not start a memory gallery to include photos and rememberances?
Hugs
Dick
I have been married to Mary for 49 years, I hope we reach 50!
There are so many wonderful memories that I could share - perhaps the best is the photograph I have of the lovely Mary at the age of 24 stood beside Victoria Falls when we lived in Southern Rhodesia (Zimbabwe). If I were to tell you of all the lovely memories I have I would take over TP.
Bless you Margarita for reminding me that there is so much to be thankful for.
Can we not start a memory gallery to include photos and rememberances?
Hugs
Dick
Dick
Any one can start a new thread
Memory gallery sounds really good idea; do you want to start it?
As I wait in anticipation
49 years gosh now that is long won’t find that now days with this generation.
Of course Mary ,will make it ,Mary still living with you she not at the last stage is she?
Victoria Falls in Southern Rhodesia (Zimbabwe) & living out there ,I mean it when I say would love to know why you & Mary was living out there , so what if you or I all of us take over TP with all our story’s of our relatives before AD, its great for the reader . some True love stories yes please ,not all of them ,but you no what I mean
Any one can start a new thread
Memory gallery sounds really good idea; do you want to start it?
As I wait in anticipation
49 years gosh now that is long won’t find that now days with this generation.
Of course Mary ,will make it ,Mary still living with you she not at the last stage is she?
Victoria Falls in Southern Rhodesia (Zimbabwe) & living out there ,I mean it when I say would love to know why you & Mary was living out there , so what if you or I all of us take over TP with all our story’s of our relatives before AD, its great for the reader . some True love stories yes please ,not all of them ,but you no what I mean
Hiya Dick,
2 years ago we were hoping mum would make it to her 50th anniversary; in 4 months time it is their 52nd. Dad had not known whether to party, my brother and I insisted that although mum was very ill there was a lot to celebrate. We had a fantastic day, lots of family,lots of food and drink and lots of joy. What a treasure!
When you and Mary make it we can have a TP party on line!
Love
Amy
2 years ago we were hoping mum would make it to her 50th anniversary; in 4 months time it is their 52nd. Dad had not known whether to party, my brother and I insisted that although mum was very ill there was a lot to celebrate. We had a fantastic day, lots of family,lots of food and drink and lots of joy. What a treasure!
When you and Mary make it we can have a TP party on line!
Love
Amy
Margarita
No two cases are the same. A reversal of the usual phrase in some situations "once you've seen one [something], you've seen them all." Doesn't work that way with dementia.
No two cases are the same. A reversal of the usual phrase in some situations "once you've seen one [something], you've seen them all." Doesn't work that way with dementia.
Of course everyone is entitled to an opinion. My "friend" was hardly talking about her own situation, as she could have decided to end her own life if she'd wanted to, she has lots to live for and so has my mother, and so have I, in spite of disabilities etc.
Unfortunately it would be too easy to persuade two doctors to sign something and to persuade my mother to sign something saying "I'd rather be dead than ..."
And it means (because people think "it'd be better to be dead than ...") that even less effort and fewer resources are put into assisted living and palliative care.
Unfortunately it would be too easy to persuade two doctors to sign something and to persuade my mother to sign something saying "I'd rather be dead than ..."
And it means (because people think "it'd be better to be dead than ...") that even less effort and fewer resources are put into assisted living and palliative care.
Amy, the party is booked for 14th September 2007.
Margarita, thanks for the suggestion of a new thread - i will call it "Happy Days".
Hugs
Dick
Margarita, thanks for the suggestion of a new thread - i will call it "Happy Days".
Hugs
Dick
"I'd rather be dead than ..."
Lila,
I guess everyone knows what the "than" is for them. My folks laid it out very specifically. They do not want to be kept alive by any means, feeding tube, resusitation, etc IF there is no hope of a meaninful recovery. It won't be my choice but their's. I will do the same so my daughter won't be burdened with that decision. My inlaws specified that it only be if they are in a coma, so everyone has different feelings about it.
I think the lesson here is to be sure our wishes are legal and known to our loved ones so that if we are are stricken in the future with any dibilitating illness, our care takers will know how to proceed on our behalf.
I told my daughter to take me to a pretty state park and let me wander off on a nice hike, then in a few hours they can go, "where's Granny" oh well. She won't do it but it appeals to me.
Debbie
Lila,
I guess everyone knows what the "than" is for them. My folks laid it out very specifically. They do not want to be kept alive by any means, feeding tube, resusitation, etc IF there is no hope of a meaninful recovery. It won't be my choice but their's. I will do the same so my daughter won't be burdened with that decision. My inlaws specified that it only be if they are in a coma, so everyone has different feelings about it.
I think the lesson here is to be sure our wishes are legal and known to our loved ones so that if we are are stricken in the future with any dibilitating illness, our care takers will know how to proceed on our behalf.
I told my daughter to take me to a pretty state park and let me wander off on a nice hike, then in a few hours they can go, "where's Granny" oh well. She won't do it but it appeals to me.
Debbie"I'd rather be dead than ..."
But I have heard it so many times, if it were consistent I might be more likely to believe it's true.
And people so often change their minds about the things to fill in that gap.
Like a friend's mother who was a staunch supporter of the Euthanasia Society, until she found she had bone cancer ...
Lila
But I have heard it so many times, if it were consistent I might be more likely to believe it's true.
And people so often change their minds about the things to fill in that gap.
Like a friend's mother who was a staunch supporter of the Euthanasia Society, until she found she had bone cancer ...
Lila
Nat
Hiya Nat,
Just seen that you are replying on this thread, and wanted to say hello, though your posting hasn't yet appeared. Still can't get over that you are sitting there on another continent and I'm here in my lounge (still not dressed cos it is my morning where I start work 2 hours later than normal, what bliss!) and we can talk to each othe. Mind boggling.
Sorry everyone else, this is nothing to do with this thread. I send a grovelling apology!
Amy
Hiya Nat,
Just seen that you are replying on this thread, and wanted to say hello, though your posting hasn't yet appeared. Still can't get over that you are sitting there on another continent and I'm here in my lounge (still not dressed cos it is my morning where I start work 2 hours later than normal, what bliss!) and we can talk to each othe. Mind boggling.
Sorry everyone else, this is nothing to do with this thread. I send a grovelling apology!
Amy
Margarita, in answer to your question, Dad got a diagnosis of Alzheimers about 6 almost 7 yrs ago now, which was later slightly changed to dementia of the alzheimers type.
With regards to euthanasia, one thing I will add to the discussion is that how does one really judge 'quality of life'. Does a person in prison have quality of life, does a child suffering from a life of disease in Africa have quality of life, does a person born with brain damage have quality of life. The problem with euthanasia is that this is such a personal question, what is quality of life for you, may be different for me, or for him or her. No doubt generally family members will have a fair idea of what quality of life means to their loved one, but that too is presupposing that the family member is truly a 'loved' one, that there is no personal bias, that the family member truly 'knows' their loved one (I continue to wonder how well I knew my father, and at the same time I know there were sides to Dad that my Mum didn't know either). A family member can of course tell family before they get to the point where the euthanasia issue arises how they feel about it, and in my opinion this would be the best way to do things, but then one also has to bear in mind that one never really knows how one will feel in a situation until one is actually in the situation. I might think I wouldn't want to live Dad's life now, but once I'm there, who really knows?
The home where Dad lives doesn't try to keep him alive so they can get more money, I get the impression that they think my family and I are crazy and cruel for trying to fight this disease, and they frustrate us because they think its wrong to keep him walking, (he appears to enjoy it by the way), they want to give him mush foods and probably would be keen for him to just be on a drip (yet he has no problems eating non-mush or swallowing unthickened drinks). They think we are cruel, while we're terrified they will kill Dad before his time is truly up, in the name of kindness. Before one makes a call on quality of life, please please be certain that you are qualified to judge that. Ask a depressed person who could have every bodily function working well except the chemicals in their brain, could be a millionaire, could have a loving family and they will tell you that they have no quality of life. I personally think its too vague a reason to give for justifying euthanasia. I have no answers though because I am all too aware that I will be most probably faced with these questions in the future. My plan at this point is not to justify my decision with 'I wanted to release him from a life where there was no quality' but instead say 'I just didn't believe he was still spiritually in his body'.
I do believe he will let go when he is ready, and if he is never ready then either the state will decide that, my mother or sister will decide (as they have POA) or my lot in life will be to have a father on a machine for decades. Coming from a background where I know intimately of cultures where members can die just because they believe they are fated to and where my own grandfather who lived on a machine for years (emphasema) who on the day he said he was giving up died just hours later, this is where I personally have decided to stand on the fence.
I understand that others have different views.
With regards to euthanasia, one thing I will add to the discussion is that how does one really judge 'quality of life'. Does a person in prison have quality of life, does a child suffering from a life of disease in Africa have quality of life, does a person born with brain damage have quality of life. The problem with euthanasia is that this is such a personal question, what is quality of life for you, may be different for me, or for him or her. No doubt generally family members will have a fair idea of what quality of life means to their loved one, but that too is presupposing that the family member is truly a 'loved' one, that there is no personal bias, that the family member truly 'knows' their loved one (I continue to wonder how well I knew my father, and at the same time I know there were sides to Dad that my Mum didn't know either). A family member can of course tell family before they get to the point where the euthanasia issue arises how they feel about it, and in my opinion this would be the best way to do things, but then one also has to bear in mind that one never really knows how one will feel in a situation until one is actually in the situation. I might think I wouldn't want to live Dad's life now, but once I'm there, who really knows?
The home where Dad lives doesn't try to keep him alive so they can get more money, I get the impression that they think my family and I are crazy and cruel for trying to fight this disease, and they frustrate us because they think its wrong to keep him walking, (he appears to enjoy it by the way), they want to give him mush foods and probably would be keen for him to just be on a drip (yet he has no problems eating non-mush or swallowing unthickened drinks). They think we are cruel, while we're terrified they will kill Dad before his time is truly up, in the name of kindness. Before one makes a call on quality of life, please please be certain that you are qualified to judge that. Ask a depressed person who could have every bodily function working well except the chemicals in their brain, could be a millionaire, could have a loving family and they will tell you that they have no quality of life. I personally think its too vague a reason to give for justifying euthanasia. I have no answers though because I am all too aware that I will be most probably faced with these questions in the future. My plan at this point is not to justify my decision with 'I wanted to release him from a life where there was no quality' but instead say 'I just didn't believe he was still spiritually in his body'.
I do believe he will let go when he is ready, and if he is never ready then either the state will decide that, my mother or sister will decide (as they have POA) or my lot in life will be to have a father on a machine for decades. Coming from a background where I know intimately of cultures where members can die just because they believe they are fated to and where my own grandfather who lived on a machine for years (emphasema) who on the day he said he was giving up died just hours later, this is where I personally have decided to stand on the fence.
I understand that others have different views.
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