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The viciousness has now spread to my daughter.

oneloopylady

Registered User
Oct 16, 2011
263
0
Hi all,

My dad has been in a care home for 3 months now, and still has not settled, probably never will. But with VD, complete immobility and incontinence, it is the best place for him, and it is a very good home and the family are very happy with the way they care for him and look after his needs.

He had a mobile phone and made really nasty vicious calls to me every few days - accuses me of stealing his money (I have POA and he knows that) and tells me I wish he was dead, and i don't care about him, and I kicked him out of the house (He lived with us but it didnt work out for him, or for us).

So we had my number removed from his phone so he could still contact his 2 grandchildren who lived a distance away, and his friend, also lives a distance away.

Yesterday, he phoned my youngest daughter - his youngest grandchild whom he adored (she is 22 and lives away from home currently) - and was sooo nasty and vicious to her. He told her that my husband, her dad, had crawled under his bed, taken his credit card and held a gun to his head. He told her we had kicked him out and she had to report us etc... and I am swanning around like a millionaire on his money(he didnt have that much to begin with and what he has pays for his care home, and extras blah blah.... so I am not expecting to inherit much if anything! lol).

It was awful and he ranted for ages. She phoned her big sister (12 years older) and big sister said she would go and visit granddad and speak to him about it and tell him not to ring her and upset her etc.

When Rebecca went, he was completely unrepentant - said Joanna was a liar and he didnt say Dave had a gun etc - but then later in the conversation he shouted at Rebecca that he 'saw Dave' with the gun and it DID happen.

Rebecca told him he upset Joanna a lot, and he shrugged and said he didnt care. That was so hurtful, because he was a doting granddad to all of them.

Rebecca and a staff member then said they would have to take the mobile off him because he was using it to abuse people and that was not good, and he threw it back at her.

He was really angry, vicious and nasty with her too.

My husband said he seems to have reached a place where he doesn't seem to care who he upsets, but he remembers some of what he said/did, so it can't all be dementia, can it? And yet, this is all completely out of character for him.

I was upset with all his viicous calls to me, but this treatment of my girls has really floored me and truthfully, I don't even want to visit him now. I have told all the family that nobody should go to visit alone anymore - always go in pairs at least.

I dont know what else to do. It is so terribly sad, for everyone.

Is this the next 'stage' of his dementia??? At the moment, he is quite 'good', alert and aware, not a bad dementia case except when he has infections - and he doesnt have an infection at the moment because staff checked after Rebecca told them how aggressive he is. I dont know if the doc would prescribe anything for him becase he doesn't do this to staff, so far, just to me, and now to the granddaughters......

Thanks for reading.

Trisha
xxx
 
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angecmc

Registered User
Dec 25, 2012
2,108
0
hertfordshire
Hi Trisha, I think if I were you and your family, I would not visit for a while, you could call the care home to see how he is doing and perhaps try again in a few weeks time. Nobody should have to put up with this, as he is not abusing the staff at the moment he hopefully will not be a problem for them. Does he have a cpn who could visit and assess him to see if they could prescribe something like risperidone to calm him down? I really feel for you all xx

Ange
 

Noorza

Registered User
Jun 8, 2012
6,542
0
Yes I do believe what you are describing is the dementia and it is horrendous. You are right to take the phone off him and to protect yourselves. The only thing I would share is that telling a person with dementia that what they believe to be true, ie the gun thing, isn't true it is extremely common for them to go off the deep end as they believe it to be true. Nothing will persuade them otherwise. The advice I've read is always to acknowledge and distract with something else. "I'm sorry you think Dad had a gun to your head, must have been terrifying for you, what would you like for tea" so you are not agreeing but acknowledging.
 

Delphie

Registered User
Dec 14, 2011
1,269
0
My mum used to adore my sons, but seems to really hate them these days and accuses them of all kinds of things, like stealing her teeth and her slippers, as well as her house. It's no use telling her that they're miles away (I think they were in France when it first started happening) and wouldn't do anything to upset her. She knows what she knows, including 'remembering' their confessions that they indeed did what she accuses them of.

So they don't really visit these days. I still do, but not as much, as the abuse isn't good for anyone, mum included.

I'm hoping that this stage won't last forever and that things will settle down so we can do more for her, as we'd like to do obviously, as her family. But her journey has been very slow, so once a stage starts it's unlikely to be over quickly.
 

Nebiroth

Registered User
Aug 20, 2006
3,510
0
My husband said he seems to have reached a place where he doesn't seem to care who he upsets, but he remembers some of what he said/did, so it can't all be dementia, can it? And yet, this is all completely out of character for him.

Trisha
xxx

Dementia doesn't just involve memory loss although it is a key feature. Esentially, diseases like Alzheimer's cause damage to the physical structure of the brain, and the brain essentially controls everything. Therefore, the symptoms depend on th eparts that get affected, that's why people get different symptoms, because the brain is specialised and different bits of it deal with different things. This specialisation is so prevalent that people can have problems with words but still work well with numbers, things like that. That's why the cognitive tests they do deal with lots of things, not just recall, but language, spatial skills, that sort of thing.

These area include the parts of the brain that involve the personality.

Therefore, almost anything can change, this is why people can have such dramatic changes in their character.

What you are getting is probably a combination of delusions, which are false beliefs, and an exagerrated response to those beliefs due to disinhibition and personality changes, plus the brain is no longer capable of the reasoning that would let it conlude that the delusional belief is so unlikely that it is not real.

In other words, your dad has a false belief (the thefts and so on - thse may or may not have their basis in something he heard or saw, on TV perhaps); he no longer has the ability to reason that his children and grandchildren make the most unlikely of cuplrits, the dementia is causing a lifetime of learnt behavior to disappear (so he just does what he feels, like a small child) and personality changes have made him a much angrier person.

You are right to not have people visit alone and to remove the phone - no one should have to be abused like that, no matter how "excusable" it is. There is no point in engaging or trying to reason, as that will not work. I would consider cutting down on the visits or not visitting at all for a bit. Also, if he starts being nasty then just leave.

I would also ask the staff how he is when you are not there, if you or the grandchildren are acting as triggers, then the visits are worse than useless, they are doing nothing but causing upset.
 

Noorza

Registered User
Jun 8, 2012
6,542
0
My mum used to adore my sons, but seems to really hate them these days and accuses them of all kinds of things, like stealing her teeth and her slippers, as well as her house. It's no use telling her that they're miles away (I think they were in France when it first started happening) and wouldn't do anything to upset her. She knows what she knows, including 'remembering' their confessions that they indeed did what she accuses them of.

So they don't really visit these days. I still do, but not as much, as the abuse isn't good for anyone, mum included.

I'm hoping that this stage won't last forever and that things will settle down so we can do more for her, as we'd like to do obviously, as her family. But her journey has been very slow, so once a stage starts it's unlikely to be over quickly.


You should be ashamed of bringing up son's who would steal your mum's teeth. :D

I'm sorry to be flippant but sometimes it is the only way I cope. Mum was burgled and the rotten dirty thieves took half of my son's snooker balls. I mean how could they?

Sometimes I have to smile instead of cry, it is sad but at least she's not accusing them of stealing the crown jewels.
 

oneloopylady

Registered User
Oct 16, 2011
263
0
Thank you all so much for the support. We had a family chat today and I told them all what had been said here and we are all agreed that we should not visit for a few days anyway and maybe he will miss the visits and behave better when we next go.

It is his 80th birthday on Thursday and we are having a small tea party at the CH for him, but I just know that he will complain next time anyone goes that he was 'left out and ignored' because he always compalins like that when we go in a group ratehr than individually.

The problem, I think, is that he is angry with me because he sees it as me kicking him out of the house and putting him into the CH, and he doesnt know 'why' so assumes a conspiracy...... then I won't visit him alone, because of the way he behaves, so he doesnt get a chance to be nasty to me, so he used to phone me to be nasty to me, then we took the phone off him, so he got nasty with someone else instead - just happened to be his poor little granddaughter!

It is so terribly sad because my dad and I were so close and such good friends, and for it to come to a place where I can't visit him alone and won't answer his calls.... just heart breaking.

I have emailed the manager at the CH to tell him all that has transpired over the weekend and see what his opinion is, and yes, it may well be that our visits are exacerbating the situation and maybe we just need to pull back on the visits.

I am going away next week for 10 days so I have already told my kids to only visit once or twice and only go in pairs or more.

I hate this situation, and cry myself to sleep wondering how he must be feeling in his more 'clear' moments when he wonders why I hardly visit, won't talk to him on the phone etc.... it must so distress him, and it is that guilt that I find hard to live with.

Thank you all so much for being here.

Trisha
xxx
 

Jessbow

Registered User
Mar 1, 2013
4,219
0
Midlands
Deep in there someone is the thought that family will always be that- Love is unconditional - hence we always hurt the one we love.

Hurtful though it is, I am sure your daughters understand. Is his number in their phones? Choose to pick it up or ignore him calling if they are not in a place mentally to cope with his irrationality at the moment. it will be interesting to see if he does/says same to care staff if he doesn't have family to rant at.
 

oneloopylady

Registered User
Oct 16, 2011
263
0
Thanks for being here for me, as always, it realy helps to have people who 'know' what we are going through.

Just to add to the situation, my eldest daughter told me that one of the senior staff said they had to tell my dad off a few times for making 'innappropriate comments' to the younger members of staff.............these girls are the same age as his granddaughter and again, my dad was a gent and would never do any such thing in his 'right mind' but it is soooo embarrassing when staff tell us these things.

I am wondering if there might be an infection, though they checked and it was clear, and that might be a reason for these changes this past week, or whether its just .... another phase.

So awful. I just want to run away.

Love and hugs to all for a good day.

Trisha
xxx
 

CollegeGirl

Registered User
Jan 19, 2011
9,525
0
North East England
I have also wanted to run away, you are not alone.

My mam started by being vicious, nasty and aggressive with my dad but could control it in front of me. Then after a while she couldn't control it in front of me, and I saw how she was with dad. Then she started being the same way with me, too, but could control it in front of her younger granddaughter (14), but recently progressed to being unable to control it in front of her, either.

My daughter now stays away from her nana, stays in her bedroom when they visit, and doesn't come with us when we visit them. I am happy for her to stay away because the next stage would be for mam to actually be vicious to my daughter, and at 14 I'm not prepared to let that happen. (Before mam became this way we did have one out of character incident where my mam slapped my daughter's face whe we were not in the room. We have never left them alone since that day, about 18 months ago.)

I feel that in our case it's just a progression of the disease. We have often wondered if it's the medication, but this has been adjusted and changed many times, with little or no improvement.

She would be absolutely horrified if she knew, and especially if she knew she'd slapped my daughter. She'd be distraught, because like most grandparents has always idolised and doted on her grandchildren.

It's very, very sad.
 

Noorza

Registered User
Jun 8, 2012
6,542
0
Does anyone else find there is an iota of truth behind their anger but they get it twisted out of all proportion and all realities. I've had a day from hell because of this.
 

steffie60

Registered User
Jan 22, 2013
232
0
Hampshire
My Mum is 89 and I have considered myself to be so lucky but as I read these posts I realize that those little comments that she makes about the people on the TV are probably the beginning of what is to come. She often finds fault with women, what they are wearing, colours, of how selfish they sound if it is one of the reality programmes of living abroad or moving home.
Uppermost in our minds we must always remember that it is the disease that eats away at them until they are no longer the person we remember.
 

oneloopylady

Registered User
Oct 16, 2011
263
0
Does anyone else find there is an iota of truth behind their anger but they get it twisted out of all proportion and all realities. I've had a day from hell because of this.


Tell me more, please?!

Iota of truth...............my dad, at his worst (when he had a UTI), thought he was in an american forces facility and they were experimenting on him (the hospital had put a catheter in and he thought they were experimenting by taking the pee out of him and replacing it with something else...bizarre, but....)

My husband was crawling under my dads bed a few weeks back to put an extension cable in so we could plug in his mobile phone, his TV etc...... this weekend, he screams that he 'saw Dave' under his bed and he held a gun up at him..........an iota of truth, but distorted....?

I stole his money..........I have POA and I do all his bills and purchases and I leave only a few £'s at the home to pay for newspapers, haircuts etc..... so he thinks I stole his money.... an iota of truth, but distorted??

It's frightening isn't it?

I hope you have recovered from your day from hell but please just spit it out here. At least here, people understand.

Big hugs, sounds like you need them.

Trisha
xxx
 

oneloopylady

Registered User
Oct 16, 2011
263
0
I have also wanted to run away, you are not alone.

My mam started by being vicious, nasty and aggressive with my dad but could control it in front of me. Then after a while she couldn't control it in front of me, and I saw how she was with dad. Then she started being the same way with me, too, but could control it in front of her younger granddaughter (14), but recently progressed to being unable to control it in front of her, either.

The thing I find the most distressing is that my dad, like your mum, is able to 'hide' the viciousness from others, like some of the staff in the CH.

When my dad phoned me last week to spit bile at me, he started the conversation really nicely, and I could hear carers in the background, then suddenly he started the nastiness and went on and on, and then suddenly started telling me how wonderful the staff were in the CH, yet 2 minutes earlier, he told me it was prison and they shouldnt be called carers, they should be called prison wardens because they were evil. So I listened, and guess what? Carers in the background again!!

It seemed so devious and ..... controlled, that it is hard to believe this is dementia....

When my eldest daughter told a senior carer about the phone call my dad made to my youngest daughter, the carer said she had never seen that side of him and he was always gentle and pleasant around her.....

How do they manage to control that side of themselves with some people yet not with others or do they all reach the place that you are in with your poor mum, where they just do it to everyone?

Take care. It is so hard to see out children suffer at the hands of this awful disease.

xxx
 

Noorza

Registered User
Jun 8, 2012
6,542
0
Tell me more, please?!

Iota of truth...............my dad, at his worst (when he had a UTI), thought he was in an american forces facility and they were experimenting on him (the hospital had put a catheter in and he thought they were experimenting by taking the pee out of him and replacing it with something else...bizarre, but....)

My husband was crawling under my dads bed a few weeks back to put an extension cable in so we could plug in his mobile phone, his TV etc...... this weekend, he screams that he 'saw Dave' under his bed and he held a gun up at him..........an iota of truth, but distorted....?

I stole his money..........I have POA and I do all his bills and purchases and I leave only a few £'s at the home to pay for newspapers, haircuts etc..... so he thinks I stole his money.... an iota of truth, but distorted??

It's frightening isn't it?

I hope you have recovered from your day from hell but please just spit it out here. At least here, people understand.

Big hugs, sounds like you need them.

Trisha
xxx



Thanks for the hugs, crying now after a day of pretending I am used to this, I don't think I'll ever get used to it.

Yes it is frightening, my mum attacked me today, she punched my car, tried to hit me but I ran. The bank have goofed, there's an iota of truth but she can't process the information, mum can't understand that it is not me. I should start a thread really with all of the issues on it. May be later.
 

Noorza

Registered User
Jun 8, 2012
6,542
0
The thing I find the most distressing is that my dad, like your mum, is able to 'hide' the viciousness from others, like some of the staff in the CH.

When my dad phoned me last week to spit bile at me, he started the conversation really nicely, and I could hear carers in the background, then suddenly he started the nastiness and went on and on, and then suddenly started telling me how wonderful the staff were in the CH, yet 2 minutes earlier, he told me it was prison and they shouldnt be called carers, they should be called prison wardens because they were evil. So I listened, and guess what? Carers in the background again!!

It seemed so devious and ..... controlled, that it is hard to believe this is dementia....

When my eldest daughter told a senior carer about the phone call my dad made to my youngest daughter, the carer said she had never seen that side of him and he was always gentle and pleasant around her.....

How do they manage to control that side of themselves with some people yet not with others or do they all reach the place that you are in with your poor mum, where they just do it to everyone?

Take care. It is so hard to see out children suffer at the hands of this awful disease.

xxx

You are so right, I have people tell me how wonderful my mum tells them I am, I actually had an 80 year old man ask me today if he could adopt me as his daughter as he is so impressed with what I do for Mum and his children don't bother. We have been friends for years but it was nice to hear.

But Mum, to me today, told me she only has one daughter, my sister, she was vile, I know what set her off but no rational explanation will be acceptable. No offer to sort the problem (of a bank's making) will stop her. Despite the journey to the hospital taking about 40 minutes each way and then getting her everything she needs to be comfortable in hospital, and visiting most days, being late for meetings I wanted to be at to look after her, today I am the worst of the worst for not spending the two hours of visiting time with her and because of a bank's error.

Sorry to hijack the thread.

It is a vicious disease.
 
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oneloopylady

Registered User
Oct 16, 2011
263
0
Oh NOorza, you are having a rough time. I am so sorry.

It really is dreadful to watch our loved ones go into this strange person who attacks us verbally and leaves us like a limp rag one day and then is perfectly 'normal' the next day and we have to just somehow find the strength to ...go with it.

And it's hard, almost impossible some days, to 'remember' that the person saying these awful things is not the person we know and love.

Big hugs to you tonight; I hope you sleep well and that tomorrow brings something brighter for both of us.

Trisha
xxx
 

Noorza

Registered User
Jun 8, 2012
6,542
0
Oh NOorza, you are having a rough time. I am so sorry.

It really is dreadful to watch our loved ones go into this strange person who attacks us verbally and leaves us like a limp rag one day and then is perfectly 'normal' the next day and we have to just somehow find the strength to ...go with it.

And it's hard, almost impossible some days, to 'remember' that the person saying these awful things is not the person we know and love.

Big hugs to you tonight; I hope you sleep well and that tomorrow brings something brighter for both of us.

Trisha
xxx

Not much sleep here tonight, but thank you so much for your post you are right it is not the person we know and love.
 

oneloopylady

Registered User
Oct 16, 2011
263
0
I spoke to the home manager today and he said they have taken a urine sample to see if there is an infection, but usually when the person remembers the delusion very clearly much later on, it is more likely to be a deterioration in mental health rather than an infection but they will follow protocol anyway.

He said my dads mental health could have deteriorated because he has been downstairs a lot in the main lounge this past couple of weeks because they have been re laying carpets on the first floor, and my dad normallly never leaves his room, even for meals but then this weekend, he chose to stay in his room again and maybe the lack of stimulation gave him too much time to think and get delusional.

The manager has asked the staff to try to make a routine of getting him downstairs every morning to read his paper in the garden or in lounge as he seemed to enjoy that when he did it for that couple of weeks. He said even small changes like the carpet laying can cause deterioration of sorts.

He has been just the same with staff but again, Martin said it is often family who suffer most and try not take it personally. He did mention the inappropriate behaviour (my dad has been making lewd comments to young female staff) but said that is a very common phase in men with dementia.

He is going upstairs to see my dad today to see how he is after a couple of days and see if he still remembers saying it all and see if he will now realise that it is not true.

We agree it is a good idea if somebody goes tomorrow to see how the land lies with him before we decide to have the big family tea party for his birthday on Thursday so Dave and I will probably take Joanna as she is coming home this evening ready for his birthday (he will be 80).

I asked Martin if it was OK for Dave to go after what my dad said and he said yes, be as normal as possible and my dad does normally like Dave so Martin thinks it should be OK but if it’s not, for any reason, staff will be nearby.

So, he appears to agree with many of you here, but it was good to hear his opinion too and to know they are being proactive.

Thanks again everyone and I will let you know what happens.....

Trisha
xxx
 

tiggs72

Registered User
Jul 15, 2013
142
0
Hi oneloopylady

My dad has AD and so far so good he has not experienced this but my Aunty has VD and has become really viscious!!

It has come to the point where I no longer visit her for my own sanity. She no longer recognises me, she is starving herself and calls everyone one around her (inc me) fatty and obese (I'm size 8-10!). On my last visit she threw a packet of biscuits at my head and told me to F OFF! I was shocked have never heard her swear! At first I was devestated I'm her only niece and as my mum left when I was young she had a big part in my upbringing so as you can imagine I was gutted. The home are struggling with her violent behaviour but have explained this is how dementia has affected her personally - it's like all her anger (she has always had a bad relationship with certain family members) has suddenly become her only emotion left.

It's been easy to walk away as I realise it's no longer her - however if my dad becomes like this I have no idea what I would do. Please try and understand it's the disease but for yr and yr family's sanity please take a step back.

So sorry this is happening to you.

T xx