The Finance question from the Dementia sufferer

Greyone

Registered User
Sep 11, 2013
391
UK
My mother has been in nursing care for 9 months. As one of her deputies I am aware that she has now used her available cash, so we are going ghrough the process of arranging a DPA against her house. My sister and I (both deputies) still live in the family home and have always done so. Sooner or later we will need to tell her that we've spent her money paying for her care and next we'll be using her house via a DPA. She is a very caring, sensitive, shy and loving mother and i think it will be very difficult for us to tell her what has to be done. I am aware that this may be ( or may not turn out to be) a difficult task for my sister and I.

I would like to make this task as painless as possible for all 3 of us. Can any one offer us any advice on how to do this with the utmost tact, or advise, based on experience, how this can be done. the first thing she may very well worry about is what will happen to my sister and I. When the time comes we will have plans in place which may not at the time be completed.

Any advice or experiences would be most welcome.

THX
 

canary

Registered User
Feb 25, 2014
11,285
South coast
I never told mum that was selling her bungalow to pay for her CH fees - I just did it.
There was no way that she would be able to return there, there was no other option and I knew that it would upset her. There was no point in upsetting her, so I just didnt tell her.
 

Shedrech

Volunteer Moderator
Dec 15, 2012
8,459
Yorkshire
Hi Greyone
Personally, I wouldn't discuss it with her at all - why take the chance of worrying her about something concerning which she can do nothing
My dad is in a care home, and his house needs to be sold, he'll never know.
As you and your sister are both deputies and agree on how to proceed, just take on the responsibility and make arrangements in her best interest
I appreciate that it's tough to no longer chat things over with our parents, we want to involve them, however sometimes it's just easier on them not to.
best wishes
 

alypaly

Registered User
Nov 7, 2014
9
If you have always lived in the house are you sure that it will not be disregarded. I am sure than I saw something from Age Concern that said a council has the discretion to disregard a property if a relative has lived there for a substantial period of time. I could be wrong but its worth checking if you haven't already
 

sleepless

Registered User
Feb 19, 2010
3,223
The Sweet North
I agree with the other posts above.

We never told my Dad that his house had been sold to pay for his care, or that the proceeds and most of his savings had been used up in this way.
He would have been very unhappy to have known this.
Dementia can be a very cruel disease, taking away so much from those it affects.
Why add to that by giving information that they do not need to know?
It is kinder to not tell.
My Dad used to ask about his house and we would say it was fine, but now he rarely asks, and 'home' can mean the house we sold or his childhood home.
 

Greyone

Registered User
Sep 11, 2013
391
UK
I completely understand what your saying and not telling her because of the consequences is one thing i will bear in mind.
 

Greyone

Registered User
Sep 11, 2013
391
UK
Thanks Shedreck. I agree with you completely. She will always have money , at least £13K which is a lot.
 

Greyone

Registered User
Sep 11, 2013
391
UK
If you have always lived in the house are you sure that it will not be disregarded. I am sure than I saw something from Age Concern that said a council has the discretion to disregard a property if a relative has lived there for a substantial period of time. I could be wrong but its worth checking if you haven't already
I will not say anything about the discretionary disregard because that is a mighty debate and not one for here. But we are considering that and are at the stage of collecting information on that very subject, ready to make our appeal without any certainty of success !!
 

Bod

Registered User
Aug 30, 2013
1,210
My mother has been in nursing care for 9 months. As one of her deputies I am aware that she has now used her available cash, so we are going ghrough the process of arranging a DPA against her house. My sister and I (both deputies) still live in the family home and have always done so. Sooner or later we will need to tell her that we've spent her money paying for her care and next we'll be using her house via a DPA. She is a very caring, sensitive, shy and loving mother and i think it will be very difficult for us to tell her what has to be done. I am aware that this may be ( or may not turn out to be) a difficult task for my sister and I.

I would like to make this task as painless as possible for all 3 of us. Can any one offer us any advice on how to do this with the utmost tact, or advise, based on experience, how this can be done. the first thing she may very well worry about is what will happen to my sister and I. When the time comes we will have plans in place which may not at the time be completed.

Any advice or experiences would be most welcome.

THX
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/366104/43380_23902777_Care_Act_Book.pdf

Annex B page 413 Property disregards.
Well worth reading.

My feelings are its better not to say anything, if at all possible.

Bod
 
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sleepless

Registered User
Feb 19, 2010
3,223
The Sweet North
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/366104/43380_23902777_Care_Act_Book.pdf

Annex B page 413 Property disregards.
Well worth reading.

My feelings are its better not to say anything, if at all possible.

Bod
I just read the part mentioned above. Can this really mean --
If a son or daughter aged over 60 of a sole parent were to sell their own home and bank the proceeds at the right time (ie before it becomes obvious that the parent needed residential care, for instance when symptoms of dementia are present but before a diagnosis), and move in with the parent, the parent's house (their inheritance) is protected, to add to the proceeds of their own home's sale?
 
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Pete R

Registered User
Jul 26, 2014
2,044
Staffs
I just read the part mentioned above. Can this really mean --
If a son or daughter aged over 60 of a sole parent were to sell their own home and bank the proceeds at the right time (ie before it becomes obvious that the parent needed residential care, for instance when symptoms of dementia are present but before a diagnosis), and move in with the parent, the parent's house (their inheritance) is protected, to add to the proceeds of their own home's sale?
Yes and No.....It would depend on capacity of the parent or who has power of attorney. Your inference of "inheritance" isn't correct for every case but yes it is certainly open to abuse if some one was that way inclined.
 

Bod

Registered User
Aug 30, 2013
1,210
I just read the part mentioned above. Can this really mean --
If a son or daughter aged over 60 of a sole parent were to sell their own home and bank the proceeds at the right time (ie before it becomes obvious that the parent needed residential care, for instance when symptoms of dementia are present but before a diagnosis), and move in with the parent, the parent's house (their inheritance) is protected, to add to the proceeds of their own home's sale?
But you would have to have moved in, well before any diagnosis, and for a reason other than parents illness, for questions not to be asked, and show you couldn't rehouse yourself. (Give up renting, have little savings etc. The local Auth. couldn't make you homeless on one hand, then have to rehome you on the other! Though they might try!!)

Bod
 

sleepless

Registered User
Feb 19, 2010
3,223
The Sweet North
But you would have to have moved in, well before any diagnosis, and for a reason other than parents illness, for questions not to be asked, and show you couldn't rehouse yourself.

Bod
Not thinking about doing this myself, Bod! Dad is in care, having paid tens of thousands from sale of his home and savings.
Just wondered if the disregard was open to abuse in this way, especially as people are living longer, and it's not unusual for 60+ year-olds to have parents with pre-diagnosed dementia. Can imagine it being very tempting if son/daughter had a low priced home, and parent a much more valuable one. But if as you say, the finances of son/daughter were to be looked into, this could prevent abuse of the system.
In conversation with a tradesperson recently he is dismayed that his parents' Attendance Allowance is stacking up in the bank (they won't have help in) and said he was going to see about transferring a few thousand into an account in his name, to protect it if they ever need to go into a care home!!!!!
I did point out that this would be considered deprivation of assets, but his remark was that what they don't know about......he had never heard of deprivation of assets (why would he, at this stage?) and thought his idea was just common sense.
 

Pete R

Registered User
Jul 26, 2014
2,044
Staffs
But you would have to have moved in, well before any diagnosis, and for a reason other than parents illness, for questions not to be asked, and show you couldn't rehouse yourself. (Give up renting, have little savings etc. The local Auth. couldn't make you homeless on one hand, then have to rehome you on the other! Though they might try!!)

Bod
Unfortunately what you have said is incorrect. If a relative aged over 60 is living in the house then the property is automatically disregarded. There are even examples in The New Care Act where they can move in after the person has gone into care. The relatives financial situation is irrelevant.
 

sleepless

Registered User
Feb 19, 2010
3,223
The Sweet North
Unfortunately what you have said is incorrect. If a relative aged over 60 is living in the house then the property is automatically disregarded. There are even examples in The New Care Act where they can move in after the person has gone into care. The relatives financial situation is irrelevant.
Surely this would be at the discretion of the LA, subject to them establishing the reasons why the 60+ year old moved in to the house?
Surely it cannot be this easy to do?

Because if it is perfectly legal, surely many a 60+ year old would do this, if they were renting a flat, say, or living in their own home but prepared to sell it, if they could potentially save an amount of money serious enough to make living with parent worthwhile?
 

Pete R

Registered User
Jul 26, 2014
2,044
Staffs
Surely this would be at the discretion of the LA, subject to them establishing the reasons why the 60+ year old moved in to the house?
Surely it cannot be this easy to do?

Because if it is perfectly legal, surely many a 60+ year old would do this, if they were renting a flat, say, or living in their own home but prepared to sell it, if they could potentially save an amount of money serious enough to make living with parent worthwhile?
I understand the point you are making but no the LA do not have any discretion, it is a mandatory disregard. They may well do checks on whether is it "the main or only home" but not much else.

The quote below is an edited version from the New Care Act. I have bolded the word "must". It was the same under the old CRAG rules so is not anything new.

"In the following circumstances the value of the person’s main or only home must be disregarded:

Where the person no longer occupies the property but it is occupied in part or whole as
their main or only home by any of the people listed below, the mandatory disregard only applies where the property has been continuously occupied since before the person went into a care home.

a relative.....of the person or member of the person’s family
who is:
(1) Aged 60 or over, or
(2) Is a child of the resident aged under 18, or
(3) Is incapacitated."


However bear in mind that the property still belongs to the person in care and is still theirs or their PoA to decide what to do with it. A disregarded property cannot (there are discretions) be part of Deferred Payment Agreement and unless the PoA and family are happy with just the LA rate then a top up still has to be paid by someone.

:)